View Poll Results: Reboot or Old Universe

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  • Reboot

    75 15.50%
  • Old Universe

    221 45.66%
  • Both

    23 4.75%
  • Either

    6 1.24%
  • There are some aspects of old universe that should be add to New 52

    73 15.08%
  • Doesn't matter as long as the stories good

    86 17.77%
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  1. #3826
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    In serialized fiction, people can and will grow attached to certain characters and books. DC realized a lot of old-timers with disposable income were attached to the pre-Crisis DCU, so they restored certain elements of that. The newer fans really aren't an issue here, as they tend to be younger and not have as much money to burn as someone who's been reading since the Silver Age.

    Thing is, the younger fans who grew up with certain newer characters are kind of peeved at this step backwards, and really, who can blame them? Given the either/or outlook of the company and the personal preferences of the brain trust, they went with fans in their age group who grew up with the same characters they did.
    That's a fallacy. I grew up with the same characters they did-Hal Jordan and Barry Allen were the most prominent Green Lantern and Flash when I was a kid (though I still liked the JSA versions better) while Wally was Kid Flash and Kyle hadn't been thought of. But I still don't recognize any of these new versions as the characters I grew up with. They haven't restored the Silver Age, they've just rehashed it-and worse, erased the Golden Age along the way!

  2. #3827
    Senior Member Addams's Avatar
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    Really depends what character we are talking about.

    I don't feel less "connected", if i dare say, with Bruce or Clark than i was before for example. Not at all.

    But Green Arrow ? Completely disconnected. Ollie died during the reboot and was replaced by someone else who stole his name.

  3. #3828
    ... with the High Command Lemurion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    In serialized fiction, people can and will grow attached to certain characters and books. DC realized a lot of old-timers with disposable income were attached to the pre-Crisis DCU, so they restored certain elements of that. The newer fans really aren't an issue here, as they tend to be younger and not have as much money to burn as someone who's been reading since the Silver Age.

    Thing is, the younger fans who grew up with certain newer characters are kind of peeved at this step backwards, and really, who can blame them? Given the either/or outlook of the company and the personal preferences of the brain trust, they went with fans in their age group who grew up with the same characters they did.

    In that situation, it's probably best for disaffected fans to walk away. The current DCU isn't geared toward them. Perhaps one day if DC is still publishing comics, there will be management with a more inclusive vision. Right now, there are a lot of other, better comics that deserve a shot.
    It's not really a step backwards, even though it does bring in things that were removed in Crisis, albeit in different forms. Backwards and forwards imply the idea of a linear progression, which is not really the case. Every reboot/relaunch/upheaval is a new direction, not forwards or backwards but more sideways. If you really look at the characters who were sidelined in the New 52, in the majority of cases the reason for taking them off the board is obvious.

    It's not a matter of personal preference, so much as the fact that not every character fits this iteration of the DCU. The majority of the MIA characters are second generation heroes who grew up in the role. That's simply not something that can work in the compressed timeline. Once you accept (not agree with, that's a different question entirely) the idea that the compressed timeline was important, then those characters are the ones that are most likely to be sidelined.

    As for the "more inclusive vision," I think that too is a misreading. Every upheaval has left characters by the wayside. It's a necessary part of redefining the DCU, every set of parameters limits the characters that can exist within it. This version is no more or less inclusive than any other iteration was at barely past the one year mark: it simply includes different characters.

    Fans of a certain generation of characters are going to be angry that those characters aren't involved in the DCU, just as fans of Supergirl, Huntress, Earth 2, and others were angry at losing their characters after Crisis. That doesn't mean that editorial is doing it to spite them personally, or because they don't like the characters. They are doing it because they don't fit the current parameters of the DCU. Give it time, things will change; they always do.
    Anyone who thinks DC is bringing back the Silver Age doesn't know what the Silver Age is.

    There is no such word as "persay," it's per se, two words, from the Latin.

  4. #3829
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    That's a fallacy. I grew up with the same characters they did-Hal Jordan and Barry Allen were the most prominent Green Lantern and Flash when I was a kid (though I still liked the JSA versions better) while Wally was Kid Flash and Kyle hadn't been thought of. But I still don't recognize any of these new versions as the characters I grew up with. They haven't restored the Silver Age, they've just rehashed it-and worse, erased the Golden Age along the way!
    How can you "recognize" them when you haven't tried?

  5. #3830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    I've been reading DC for close to forty years now, and I have no difficulty connecting with the current DCU.

    Part of it may be that I'm a Pre-Crisis fan. I have the Legion I grew up loving back, the one that Cary Bates wrote and Dave Cockrum and Mike Grell drew. It's not exactly the same, but Levitz's Legion feels like the same characters in a way that they haven't for decades. The JSA is back on Earth 2. It's not the same Earth 2 I remember, but it's Earth 2! They are finally home. Huntress' last name is Wayne.

    Everything changes, but in some ways I'm finding this easier to connect with than after Crisis.


    I'll admit that I've dropped some books, and had others cancelled as the New 52 has progressed. That's okay, though. I started with just over half the titles, and now I'm down in the range of about a quarter, which is where I expected to be. The shiny always wears off. What matters is that I'm enjoying the books I like, and not worrying about the ones I don't.
    Great summation.

  6. #3831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay! View Post
    How can you "recognize" them when you haven't tried?
    I read the first issues of most of them in my LCS, and I've read the online previews. That was enough. If the characters' histories are gone, they are not the same characters.

  7. #3832
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    I read the first issues of most of them in my LCS, and I've read the online previews. That was enough. If the characters' histories are gone, they are not the same characters.
    I knew you couldn't tell the truth.

  8. #3833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    The JSA is back on Earth 2. It's not the same Earth 2 I remember, but it's Earth 2!
    It's not the same JSA you remember, either. And it's certainly not the JSA I remember. Not even remotely. Calling it "Earth 2" means nothing because it's still a total reboot.

  9. #3834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay! View Post
    I knew you couldn't tell the truth.
    In don't agree with tony in most areas, but he has said he hasn't bought any DC comics since the relaunch, and reading them in the shop or reading previews does not invalidate that.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  10. #3835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay! View Post
    I knew you couldn't tell the truth.
    What are you talking about?

  11. #3836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    It's not really a step backwards, even though it does bring in things that were removed in Crisis, albeit in different forms. Backwards and forwards imply the idea of a linear progression, which is not really the case. Every reboot/relaunch/upheaval is a new direction, not forwards or backwards but more sideways. If you really look at the characters who were sidelined in the New 52, in the majority of cases the reason for taking them off the board is obvious.
    Calling a step backwards is understandable. Characters have been reverted to earlier points in their careers and even if the future directions may very well be different, it's a lot like reading a revised chapter 3 when you were on chapter 7. I think the backwards term has too much negative connotation here, though. The stories are about the characters in an earlier part of life. Nothing right or wrong about that; I may not like it, but it is DC's choice and many people do appear to be enjoying the developments.

    And yes, I have b!+ched and moaned about the JSA's rejuvenation, calling it a creative mistake. I'm not complaining about that here, only trying to explain the backwards term.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

  12. #3837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    It's a challenge, but I'm making the adjustment. In a way, it's sort of brought my comics-reading back to its roots; when you're a child, you typically don't read comics and form deep emotional ties with the character. You're just dazzled by the "Whiff!" "Bam!" "Pow!" of the whole affair, and the New 52 has sort of gotten me to revisit reading comics in that frame of mind.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

    I think I had a similar conversion. Certainly the reboot got me to break a lot of my comic buying habits and to start buying more based on what's jumping out at me than what I'd pre-ordered or put on my pull list again.

  13. #3838
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    It's not really a step backwards, even though it does bring in things that were removed in Crisis, albeit in different forms. Backwards and forwards imply the idea of a linear progression, which is not really the case. Every reboot/relaunch/upheaval is a new direction, not forwards or backwards but more sideways. If you really look at the characters who were sidelined in the New 52, in the majority of cases the reason for taking them off the board is obvious.

    It's not a matter of personal preference, so much as the fact that not every character fits this iteration of the DCU. The majority of the MIA characters are second generation heroes who grew up in the role. That's simply not something that can work in the compressed timeline. Once you accept (not agree with, that's a different question entirely) the idea that the compressed timeline was important, then those characters are the ones that are most likely to be sidelined.

    As for the "more inclusive vision," I think that too is a misreading. Every upheaval has left characters by the wayside. It's a necessary part of redefining the DCU, every set of parameters limits the characters that can exist within it. This version is no more or less inclusive than any other iteration was at barely past the one year mark: it simply includes different characters.

    Fans of a certain generation of characters are going to be angry that those characters aren't involved in the DCU, just as fans of Supergirl, Huntress, Earth 2, and others were angry at losing their characters after Crisis. That doesn't mean that editorial is doing it to spite them personally, or because they don't like the characters. They are doing it because they don't fit the current parameters of the DCU. Give it time, things will change; they always do.
    But DC kept four Robins and Roy Harper is still around. So I don't really agree with this. I do think, from the way they use words like "iconic," that they are using time compression as an excuse to get rid of characters they dislike. It is no secret that editorial loathes Cass and Steph. If they were smart they would own their retro outlook: "We want to get back to the characters we grew up with." They'd also perhaps have decent sendoffs for characters they will obviously never bring back. Just a last hurrah for say, Cass Cain. Then say, "Cass isn't in the DCU anymore and there will be no new stories with her." And be done with it. But no more flimsy excuses or broken promises.

  14. #3839
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    It is no secret that editorial loathes Cass and Steph.
    I remain completely unconvinced that the people who write and publish comics, professionals who are paid to do a job, get deeply personal about these fictional characters. From their point of view, all characters are money-making tools and treated as such.

    I know that if I were in their position, that's how I'd treat the characters, apart from how I might look at them as a fan.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    faze (v.): to cause to be disturbed or disconcerted; to stun

    phase (n.):
    a stage in a process of change or development

    Get it right, people.

  15. #3840
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    I really wanted to love the DCnU, but, after 15 issues of some of my old favorites, I recently dropped my pull list at my comics shop because I simply don't care about these books anymore. The reboot was a huge disconnect for me and I now read these books only in trade paperback or hardcover. I wasn't particularly enthralled with Grant Morrison's Action Comics, even though I really thought I would be. Swamp Thing is better than it was when it was at Vertigo, but still isn't something I have to read. Flash isn't interesting to me at all. I like Suicide Squad, but that was because it was a pleasant surprise. I thought I'd hate it, but actually enjoyed it. My biggest disappointment has been All-Star Western. I love nearly everything Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray write, but I just haven't been able to get into these Jonah Hex stories like I did their first series.

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