A little question about Teen Titans..

[Fate's Faith]

Huh that's how Donna was created? No wonder the character has had so many problems.

Actually, if you think about it, she's a pretty consistent character

And yes, I did know Wonder Girl and Wonder Woman were one and the same. Its one of the funny facts to me when we think editors don't pay attention today. I wonder if they just laughed in the halls until someone finally broke down and told him or he always wondered why people snickered behind his back.

[stk]

Actually, if you think about it, she's a pretty consistent character

And yes, I did know Wonder Girl and Wonder Woman were one and the same. Its one of the funny facts to me when we think editors don't pay attention today. I wonder if they just laughed in the halls until someone finally broke down and told him or he always wondered why people snickered behind his back.

The way the business was back then, whoever it was probably just shrugged and got back to work. This was still kind of before the first generation of fans became professionals. Especially in editorial. It was a job, and the prevailing wisdom was that the books were still aimed at a very young audience that wouldn't know or care. And at the time, that was mostly true.

[Lorendiac]

Actually, if you think about it, she's a pretty consistent character

And yes, I did know Wonder Girl and Wonder Woman were one and the same. Its one of the funny facts to me when we think editors don't pay attention today. I wonder if they just laughed in the halls until someone finally broke down and told him or he always wondered why people snickered behind his back.

I've seen two competing schools of thought regarding just "how" and "why" Wonder Girl was allowed to become a founding member of the Teen Titans way back when.

The Accidental Misunderstanding School of Thought goes this way: Bob Haney was not a huge Wonder Woman fan, but he had at least glanced at a few Silver Age Wonder Woman comic books in which Wonder Woman was teaming up with Wonder Girl, and/or in which "Wonder Girl" was starring in a solo adventure on Paradise Island "several years ago," and Haney simply failed to grasp the point that Wonder Girl and Wonder Tot were supposed to be "Wonder Woman at earlier ages." (Some sources claim that, in Bob's defense, this explanation about it being Diana at three different ages was not always spelled out in the Silver Age stories showing such "team-ups" -- so even if Bob read one such story all the way through, he might still not realize this was "very young Diana, teenaged Diana, and grown-up Diana." I don't know how accurate that is; I haven't read all of those old stories.)

This school of thought insists that Bob Haney honestly assumed that Wonder Girl "must be" a contemporary sidekick of Wonder Woman's, the same way Robin was Batman's sidekick and Kid Flash was Flash's sidekick and so forth, and he thought it would be a nifty idea to put a bunch of those sidekicks together as their own team -- a sort of "Junior Justice League." Whoever was editing the first couple of stories of the "Teen Titans" may have been, like Haney, blissfully unaware of the nitpicking details of the Wonder Woman/Wonder Girl/Wonder Tot backstory . . . until it was too late because they'd already sent to press at least one or two stories featuring "Wonder Girl" as existing in the same modern world as Dick and Wally and Garth and eventually Roy (when he joined up later).

On the other hand! The Clever Conspiracy School of Thought goes this way: Bob Haney knew darn well that "Wonder Girl," as depicted in several Silver Age Wonder Woman stories, was "Diana at a younger age, plain and simple." But he didn't care about the strange concept of "respecting established continuity even when it's inconvenient for you!" When the idea came to him that it might be "cool" to have a bunch of juvenile superhero sidekicks start having group adventures of their own, without wanting or needing any help from their stuffy grown-up mentors, he wanted to have at least one cute girl in the mix along with the teenage boys, and so he decided to "play dumb" by writing and submitting a script which would show this new "Teen Titans" concept including Wonder Girl as a founding member -- as if she were "Wonder Woman's pint-sized imitator, who is an active superhero 'right here and now.'"

This school takes the position that Haney, with Machiavellian cunning, and with or without the knowing complicity of his editor, managed to get at least one such story onto the newsstands before any of the Wonder Woman specialists at DC had consciously noticed what was going on, and at that point they concluded it was a little bit too late to try to tell the readership: "Ignore that recently-published story -- there's no such thing as a 'contemporary Wonder Girl' who is in the same age group as Dick Grayson, Wally West, and Garth of Atlantis." In effect, Haney had just "retconned" Wonder Girl from being "Diana when she was much younger" to being "a cute youngster from Paradise Island who somehow got a duplicate magic lasso, etc., and is now following in her role model's footsteps." (Although, as mentioned earlier in this thread, Haney never bothered to give Wonder Girl/Donna anything resembling a detailed origin story!)

Question: Which school of thought comes closer to the strict truth of what was actually happening inside Bob Haney's mind when he "created" the group concept of the Teen Titans by bringing together existing characters?

Answer: I don't know!

Although I will say that there is ample evidence from his other published works to support the general idea that Haney took a very easygoing attitude towards the entire concept of "continuity." For example, years later he invented a long-lost brain-damaged brother for Bruce Wayne in one story, and let Deadman take over the guy's body as a "permanent residence" . . . and then killed the brother (Thomas Wayne, Junior, I believe the name was) in a later story. No other writer at DC ever gave the existence of "Batman's long-lost brother" any acknowledgment whatsoever, in stories set in the mainstream Batman titles, Pre-COIE or Post-COIE, and there is no reason they should have! It wasn't "rock-solid Earth-One continuity," it was just "Bob Haney Continuity!" (Or should I say "Bob Haney Discontinuity?")

In the past, I have compared Bob Haney's attitude towards continuity with that of Jeph Loeb in more modern times. Here's something Loeb once said (in a text piece that was an introduction to a TPB collection of some of his work for DC):

Now, mind you, I sort of believe that continuity – or the rules of storytelling in the DC Comics Universe – goes like this: “Jimmy Olsen didn’t become Robin, the Boy Wonder, and everything else is up for grabs.”

I think Bob Haney would agree with that!

[Whip Whirlwind]

I like the latter theory, if only because it makes Bob sound like a boss.

[dupersuper]

There wasn't much editorial oversight on the book. They were picking members based on covers alone and Supergirl didn't make the cut at the time. Was she even around yet?

She was around, but may still have been in hiding in the "Supermans secret weapon" stage of her career.

[Buried Alien]

It took until the early 2000s before *any* member of the Super-family (Kon-El Superboy) to join the Teen Titans franchise. I wonder if DC had a policy until then of not putting any characters from the SUPERMAN franchise in the Titans.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[the4thpip]

It took until the early 2000s before *any* member of the Super-family (Kon-El Superboy) to join the Teen Titans franchise. I wonder if DC had a policy until then of not putting any characters from the SUPERMAN franchise in the Titans.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Supergirl (Matrix version) joined in 1995.

[the4thpip]

As for the original questions: it may have played a role, too, that both Supergirl and Superboy were already members of a team: The Legion.

[Lorendiac]

As for the original questions: it may have played a role, too, that both Supergirl and Superboy were already members of a team: The Legion.

Good point! Now I'm embarrassed that I didn't even think of that angle when I was participating in this thread before!

(Digressive Note: I remember how surprised I was, several years ago now, when I realized that in the original "Supergirl meets the Legion" story, DC tried to maintain the generation gap between her and her older cousin by saying that the 30th Century Legion for which she was applying was actually a Legion largely consisting of the look-alike children of the "founding members" who had tested Superboy for membership "many years earlier." That entire idea of a "second-generation Legion, virtually identical to the original version" seems to have vanished into comic book limbo soon after that one story, never to be heard from again! Someone must have made the editorial decision that "it wouldn't be the end of the world if Superboy and Supergirl occasionally fought side by side with each other, as well as with a dozen or more Legionnaires, in stories set in the far future!")

[Lorendiac]

When the Teen Titans first assembled way back in 66, they had Robin, Wonder Girl, Aqualad and Kid Flash.

Was there a reason why Supergirl didn´t join the roster?
Were they affraid the lineup would become too "girl" or paint the boys under a harsh light, being that they already had Wonder Girl as the resident "brick"?

Something just occurred to me a few minutes ago, and I did a little online research to confirm my sudden suspicion.

Linda Danvers (Supergirl) had graduated from high school and become a college student way back in 1964. That means she'd already been in college for awhile by the time the "Teen Titans" got started. The way Donna and Dick and Garth and Wally were being written by Haney, they were already teenagers but none of them seemed old enough to be on the verge of graduating from high school.

So perhaps the true explanation is very simple? "Age difference! Supergirl didn't get to be a Teen Titan -- because she was significantly older than the other founding members of the Titans, and it would seem weird for a college student who was probably about to turn 20 to constantly be hanging out at the clubhouse with some kids who were maybe 15 or 16 at most!"

[doordoor123]

Supergirl is an alien (unlike the rest of the team) and it would take away from the initial story.

[Outside_85]

Something just occurred to me a few minutes ago, and I did a little online research to confirm my sudden suspicion.

Linda Danvers (Supergirl) had graduated from high school and become a college student way back in 1964. That means she'd already been in college for awhile by the time the "Teen Titans" got started. The way Donna and Dick and Garth and Wally were being written by Haney, they were already teenagers but none of them seemed old enough to be on the verge of graduating from high school.

So perhaps the true explanation is very simple? "Age difference! Supergirl didn't get to be a Teen Titan -- because she was significantly older than the other founding members of the Titans, and it would seem weird for a college student who was probably about to turn 20 to constantly be hanging out at the clubhouse with some kids who were maybe 15 or 16 at most!"

While that does make sense, it is worth noting that comicbook-time would mean she was probably still in college when NTT started up (unless of course she actually graduated) where at least Wally and Raven also attended college.

[Lorendiac]

While that does make sense, it is worth noting that comicbook-time would mean she was probably still in college when NTT started up (unless of course she actually graduated) where at least Wally and Raven also attended college.

As I understand it, Linda Danvers (the Pre-COIE version) was a student enrolled on three different campuses at various times, following the whims of various writers (or their editors?). But according to DarkMark's incredibly comprehensive Supergirl Index, she graduated from Stanhope College (her first alma mater) in "Adventure Comics #406," cover-dated May, 1971, and promptly started looking for a job. Her cousin Clark helped her find one with the news crew of a TV station in San Francisco.

So by the time Wolfman and Perez began their classic run on the new title "The New Teen Titans" in 1980, it had been 9 years (in the real world, at least) since Linda graduated from college, and presumably she was about 22 years old at the time she completed her bachelor's degree!

(Clark, of course, had changed his superhero alias from "Superboy" to "Superman" before he ever finished college, but Linda apparently preferred to stick with the name "Supergirl" even after she was a grown woman with a full-time job in her secret identity. Although I do recall some dialogue from the early 1980s which made it clear that Clark took it for granted that one of these days she would change her alias to Superwoman . . . it just hadn't happened yet!)