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  1. #31
    Senior Member HXHAlex's Avatar
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    Dat costume


  2. #32
    New Member BatWatch's Avatar
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    Hey! You are the only other guy I've seen voice that the Heretic is Damian. That is my theory too though I do not think he is a clone; I think he is the original all grown up. At the end of Batman Inc. five, future Damian talks to the person responsible for all the problems. I think present Talia went to the future and brought him to the present. Any specifics in your clone theory?

    I enjoyed Azrael though I've read very little of his solo series. I always wondered why they killed him off. You seem to be a Jean-Paul Valley expert. Any insight?

    Quote Originally Posted by HXHAlex View Post
    Dat costume

    Agreed. You can't make a better nineties costume than that. It would still hold up today with minor changes.
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  3. #33
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatWatch View Post
    Hey! You are the only other guy I've seen voice that the Heretic is Damian. That is my theory too though I do not think he is a clone; I think he is the original all grown up. At the end of Batman Inc. five, future Damian talks to the person responsible for all the problems. I think present Talia went to the future and brought him to the present. Any specifics in your clone theory?

    I enjoyed Azrael though I've read very little of his solo series. I always wondered why they killed him off. You seem to be a Jean-Paul Valley expert. Any insight?
    My theory on Heretic being a Damian clone is basically the same as yours. In the Batman vs Robin arc of Batman & Robin, when Dick & Damian go to Talia's base after she has Deathstroke use Damian as a puppet, she shows him that she's begun growing a clone of him, in the same manner in which he was created. I think she got access to Professor Nichols' time travel technology and used it to bring the adult version of that clone back from the future.

    As for why they killed off JPV, I have no direct knowledge of what led to the decision, but my first guest would be low sales. They changed his costume four or five times over the course of his 100-issue series, changed the title to Azrael: Agent of the Bat in effort to boost sales, and none of it worked. The quality of the series was very schizophrenic, some stories were excellent, some were just "WTF?", so the series didn't have much real direction and sales suffered. The way he was killed off was pretty ambiguous, and it really wasn't until Blackest Night that Jean Paul was actually confirmed dead, because Batman himself said he never found the body, only a bullet-ridden costume.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSexSix View Post
    My theory on Heretic being a Damian clone is basically the same as yours. In the Batman vs Robin arc of Batman & Robin, when Dick & Damian go to Talia's base after she has Deathstroke use Damian as a puppet, she shows him that she's begun growing a clone of him, in the same manner in which he was created. I think she got access to Professor Nichols' time travel technology and used it to bring the adult version of that clone back from the future.
    That's exactly what I was thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSexSix View Post
    As for why they killed off JPV, I have no direct knowledge of what led to the decision, but my first guest would be low sales. They changed his costume four or five times over the course of his 100-issue series, changed the title to Azrael: Agent of the Bat in effort to boost sales, and none of it worked. The quality of the series was very schizophrenic, some stories were excellent, some were just "WTF?", so the series didn't have much real direction and sales suffered. The way he was killed off was pretty ambiguous, and it really wasn't until Blackest Night that Jean Paul was actually confirmed dead, because Batman himself said he never found the body, only a bullet-ridden costume.
    I remember reading it had something to do with O'Neil not wanting anyone else write the character. He supposedly wanted to end the series on his terms since it was a dying book. But i could be wrong as this was a long time ago.

    For what it's worth though, Geoff Johns said that JPV isn't dead in the new 52.
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  5. #35
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    That's pretty interesting. If he's not dead, does he mean because he hasn't been introduced yet, or because some of his history as Azrael hasn't been retconned out of existence? We know Bane broke Bruce's back, he said so much in his appearance in Dark Knight, but that's the only mention of Knightfall that I've seen in the Nu-52. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that JPV took over for Bruce after that. Dammit, I hope he shows up soon! Like this year! And, for the millionth time, in his ORIGINAL Azrael gear!

  6. #36
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSexSix View Post
    That's pretty interesting. If he's not dead, does he mean because he hasn't been introduced yet, or because some of his history as Azrael hasn't been retconned out of existence? We know Bane broke Bruce's back, he said so much in his appearance in Dark Knight, but that's the only mention of Knightfall that I've seen in the Nu-52. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that JPV took over for Bruce after that. Dammit, I hope he shows up soon! Like this year! And, for the millionth time, in his ORIGINAL Azrael gear!
    It wasn't clear what he meant. I had asked him something about Blackest Night at NYCC last year and he said something about JPV not necessarily being dead in the new continuity, so it doesn't really mean much.

    Btw, I'm in NYC too. I live in Astoria. How about you?
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  7. #37
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    Nice, I'm on the Bronx/Westchester border & I work primarily in midtown :)

  8. #38
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    It wasn't clear what he meant. I had asked him something about Blackest Night at NYCC last year and he said something about JPV not necessarily being dead in the new continuity, so it doesn't really mean much.

    Btw, I'm in NYC too. I live in Astoria. How about you?
    Well the Blackest Knight azrael could easily be the Asian man killed by JPV.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

    -C.S. Lewis

  9. #39
    0801 jetter_cheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Funny thing is that Calvin Rose is pretty much Azrael with the serial numbers filed off, so there's that.
    Exactly what I thought when I first read Talon.
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  10. #40
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Well the Blackest Knight azrael could easily be the Asian man killed by JPV.
    In the character bios at the end of the Blackest Night TPB's, it actually says that it was Jean Paul.

  11. #41
    New Member BatWatch's Avatar
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    That would mean that the future Damain we saw in the last issue is the clone, yet we see him as having a flashback to younger Damain standing over the body of Batman. Also, we see future Batman with Alfred, the cat ywelloung Damian has. Also, what would have happened to original Damian?

    Yeah, I was surprised that they confirmed him as dead in Blackest Night. It seems like it would have been cooler to leave the mystery. Sad that they just offed him. If he had a run for 100 issues, he had to be selling pretty okay at least up until the end. Odd that they decided to just kill him. You know what, I'm going to find the editor at the time and ask him.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetter_cheeze View Post
    Exactly what I thought when I first read Talon.
    Cassandra is also similar to JPV.

  13. #43

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    Enough with the similarities, copies, and knock-offs!

    Bring back JPV and in the original Azrael uniform!

  14. #44
    Lover of fine stories Mahou Otaku's Avatar
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    I must agree with this entirely. Jean Paul was an excellent character introduced during a very bad time for the comic book market.

    I'm afraid if Wally West has very little chance of reappearing, we may never see our flaming-sword friend again. I hope I'm wrong, and that he appears in some form, whether that be as a secondary story in a Batman book, or a member of a team such as The Outsiders or Red Hood and the Outlaws, anywhere really would be nice.

    I'm just not going to hold my breath on this one!

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahou Otaku View Post
    I must agree with this entirely. Jean Paul was an excellent character introduced during a very bad time for the comic book market.

    I'm afraid if Wally West has very little chance of reappearing, we may never see our flaming-sword friend again. I hope I'm wrong, and that he appears in some form, whether that be as a secondary story in a Batman book, or a member of a team such as The Outsiders or Red Hood and the Outlaws, anywhere really would be nice.

    I'm just not going to hold my breath on this one!
    There's a lot of great characters created in the 90's, aside of JPV another favorite of mine was Anarky, sadly they turned in a mess thanks to nobody knowing what to do with him. I'm really curious about JPV and Lonnie meeting Nu52 Jason since they certainly got a lot of talk about: JPV replacing Bruce, Anarky's philosphy, their relationship with Bruce...

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