An Azrael thread (Jean Paul Valley)

[JaggedFel]

I always liked Azrael (the Jean-paul version.) I liked the Sword of Azrael mini as well as the first couple of years of his solo series, but then I stopped reading for awhile. I never saw the Lane version of the character. I doubt DC will bring Azrael back--they probably see him as a very 1990's character--but I wouldn't mind seeing an Azrael solo title with him being far away from Gotham City and Batman's world.

(I think maybe part of the reason I liked Azrael so much was that he had a real Moon Knight feel to him, and I love Moon Knight.)

I read somewhere that DC would have to pay Joe Quesada royalties if they brought Azrael back. Not sure if that's true or not.

I don't think they have 90s problem plenty of it's influence everywhere at DC.

Also thy put him in Arkham City, I really doubt they are paying royalties to Joe Q

[godisawesome]

Lol there is no way JPV would ever defeat Lane in combat. Lane is simply a very hax "street level" character. Like Wildstorm Midnighter. Not to mention the Crusader as backup.

As for Lane less then altruistic actions. They can be blamed on a whole lot of PTSD from the war and all the mental fu**ery he underwent getting turned into a replacement bat.

Still I would like to see Lane more seems tailor made for the DC Dark Line.

Also they actually both show up in those Batman Arkham comics. Not very satisfying I know but it is something.

"Both?" I only saw a comic featuring Michael Lane. If JPV shows up, I want the issue number!

Have to admit that I never really cared that much for Michael Lane as Azrael. He was too much a reversal of the old one and they barely did anything with the name's legacy. We saw bits and pieces of the Order of St. Dumas and it was kind of hilarious how different the book was. We went from high tech sci-fi shenanigans with JPV to Dan Brown-level researched mystic horror stories. I remember that I was thinking of buying one of the issues to check it out when I flipped through it and saw the "8th deadly sin: faith."



Jean Paul was cool in that he was a brainwashed and conflicted juggernaut of a fighter who was probably the most physically powerful memeber of the Bat-family but also the most unstable. Michael Lane kept the instability but gave him magic alchemical swords with really weird properties. I mean, c'mon, "Dick Grayson! You once watched a boy get beaten up! How dare you?!?" and "Tim Drake ain't got no sins. Also, these swords apparently can't detect lying," kind of sucked as offensive attacks compared to "Flaming-on, arm swords! It's time for a bad guy barbeque!"

Lane seems to me to have been kind of shoe-horned into the role because "Hey, we've got an ambiguously moral Batman replacement here and a magic suit of armor! Why don't we combine the two to make an azrael character! But let's keep him street and make sure he in almost no way resembles the previous one and has weird, pseudo-faith based adventures with magic!That'll work!"

[JaggedFel]

They insta kill with enough sin pretty effective

[SicSexSix]

Lane wasn't shown to be such a great fighter, and aside from the swords, he didn't have any kind of meta abilities. Jean Paul was conditioned for the role, we were shown many times over how powerful he was, he's taken down both Bane AND Bruce on more than one occasion, and Lane's skill & abilities were shown as being no where even close. He didn't always have the Crusader with him either, but even if he did, and the two of them took JPV out, well, Lane couldn't take the credit if he had help, only if it were one on one. Plus, Jean Paul got the rub from Ra's. He may have used Lane as a tool, but if he believed him to be a truly dangerous man, he would've rolled out the red carpet, much like he did for Bruce, JPV, and Bane.

[cactusmaac]

Great character with a fantastic look and a lot of potential. Unfortunately O'Neill's lacklustre solo series drained away most of the enthusiasm for the character and I doubt DC is looking to bring him back. Probably won't happen until a Knightfall fan is writing one of the books.

[Seattle Freeze]

I loved the conflicted nature of the character and his look. I especially enjoyed JPV in No Man's Land. I keep hoping enough enthusiasm for him happens that we see him pop up.

But I hope DC brings him back as a continuation of his prior stories rather then reinvent him.

[Aquacatlungfish]

I found crazy Jesus weirdo Batman hilariously entertaining TBH. I guess it sucked to have him for a year but when reading it in trades it was great.

[JaggedFel]

Lane wasn't shown to be such a great fighter, and aside from the swords, he didn't have any kind of meta abilities. Jean Paul was conditioned for the role, we were shown many times over how powerful he was, he's taken down both Bane AND Bruce on more than one occasion, and Lane's skill & abilities were shown as being no where even close. He didn't always have the Crusader with him either, but even if he did, and the two of them took JPV out, well, Lane couldn't take the credit if he had help, only if it were one on one. Plus, Jean Paul got the rub from Ra's. He may have used Lane as a tool, but if he believed him to be a truly dangerous man, he would've rolled out the red carpet, much like he did for Bruce, JPV, and Bane.

Lane tanks Rockets and armor piercing bullets like nothing.

He has the Bat programming so its not like he is terrible at martial arts. His swords generate enough heat to turn sand to glass. Lane fought Bruce like twice. He won once and lost once. Besides all that was pre awakening, he got a lot stronger after unlocking his full powers. He owned Nightwing in two moves after that. He has never fought Bane so that is irrelevant.

He can literally stand there and let JPV get tired. But honestly this site is not exactly the best for debates on battles. Comicvine is better.

[Eivion]

Still, is a very large leap on logic to go from a few old rich men to an organization similar to the catholic church. I didin't like a lot the angle of Female fatale for Lilhy since I found more endearing her being equal socially awkward than Jean Paul plus I thought that they made a cute couple.

The thing is Lilhy was never really a good person. She was very much ingrained in the Order's teachings. While the social awkwardness was fun, it made perfect sense for her to eventually adapt and use her new knowledge and awareness to acquire the power she was trying to acquire when she was in the Order. As far as the rich old white men talk goes we never actually see any of the leadership for the Order in Sword of Azrael. The description was really just a best guess from Bruce. considering the strangeness of Azrael, Nomoz, and the carnage Lehah went through the church/cult aspect made more sense to me.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

The thing is Lilhy was never really a good person. She was very much ingrained in the Order's teachings. While the social awkwardness was fun, it made perfect sense for her to eventually adapt and use her new knowledge and awareness to acquire the power she was trying to acquire when she was in the Order. As far as the rich old white men talk goes we never actually see any of the leadership for the Order in Sword of Azrael. The description was really just a best guess from Bruce. considering the strangeness of Azrael, Nomoz, and the carnage Lehah went through the church/cult aspect made more sense to me.

Thing is, I don't think that Rollo would let LeHah go on his rampage unpunished. He deliver swift and brutal 'justice' on the acolite that let free the virus on Contagion, he send wave after wave of hitmen after Jean-Paul.

You got a point on Lilhy, tough.

[SeventhTrump]

With the current "Death in the Family" storyline going on and the Joker commented that the Bat Family has made Batman soft, perhaps the Joker needs a reminder of a Batman who was the opposite and did not just take him back to Arkham!

[SicSexSix]

Joker DID seem a bit nervous in his first encounter with AzBats, not so much when they ran into each other the second time & he was back to being Azrael, but then again, that was in Arkham, Joker had homefield advantage & a few hundred inmates as back-up. I'll say it again, I'm hoping for JPV to be introduced into the Nu-52 this year, IN the Azrael role (with the original costume, natch).

[JaggedFel]

Hmm doubtful That talon guy is kinda of crossbreed of Az and Cass Cain anyway.

Although who knows the Dark Line is hot and DC is impossible to predict. Never would have thought Wally West would be warming the bench this long in limbo

[godisawesome]

Eh, I enjoy coming up with fan scenarios, so how's this for a Azrael returns storyline.

We start off with Michael Lane in slightly more imaginative Azrael armor, something like his suit in Arkham City, and his search through Gotham for Jean Paul Valley, his predecessor and erstwhile colleague from the Order of Saint Dumas. The Order here is portrayed in the same manner as in their earliest appearances; small in number but incredibly wealthy, and very much stagnant in the inner circle with ambitious outer members trying to get in. The audience is informed that Valley left the Order by beating his handler half-to-death after refusing to carry out some kind of order in Gotham, and the subsequent fallout led to the decimation of the Order when it got caught between a rock (the Bat-Family) and a hard place (Ra's Al Ghul and the League of Assassins). Lane's whole mission is to find him and execute vengeance.

We find out that the Bat-Family kept in contact with Jean Paul until a few years ago. We know he knew Tim, Dick, Babs and Bruce, but the details are kept vague enough that no continuity alarms are registered. Jean Paul disappeared afterwards, and Lane begins his search by breaking into police headquarters to search their files. Here he first comes into conflict with Damian and Bruce, and we find out he was part of the Three Batmen from Morrison's storyline but disappeared after the helicopter explosion. Lane was taken in by the Order and healed, his mental programming broken and his body mended. Whereas Valley had a complex "System" put in place as a child to become Azrael, Lane won his position through his efforts on behalf of the Order.

After some debate on the morality of Lane's actions and Valley's guilt, Lane sets off an explosion to allow his escape and destroy his trail. The Bat-Family gets together and manages to put together that Lane found that one of Valley's old companions, reformed drunk Brian, has reported incidents in which minor felons and miscreants harassing him have been left badly injured in a small slum outside of Gotham. Bruce relates that once he left the Order, Valley's "System" slowly started to deteriorate his mind, locking out his personalities and ranging from catatonic to Azrael mode at different intervals.

Lane finds Brian and while interrogating him, is confronted by Valley, mute and unstable, who puts up an excellent, overwhelming onslaught but falls apart when his mind starts to lock up. Since Lane sees that he can capture Valley, he does so and offers him to the Order's inner circle for trial. they actually like that and congratulate Lane, informing him that he will guard their safe house while they try and "give him penance," actually attempting to find out what he remembers of some of their lost secrets; it turns out the Order that saved Lane is only a splinter, since the Order was fractured and lost after their fall.

Batman and crew show up and engage Lane and the Order's other goons. Eventually, Lane is confronted by the freed Valley, who was put back together just enough by the Order that he would talk and managed to use his Gotham training to escape and find his own armor. Awesome flame sword duel ensues, Lane discovers that his Order played a part in the destruction of his original neighborhood at the behest of Dr. Hurt, and eventually submits to Valley's mercy. Valley knows he still has issues and proposes they track down the rest of the Order, since if there is a branch doing good they need help and if there are branches being bad, they must be stopped.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Eh, I enjoy coming up with fan scenarios, so how's this for a Azrael returns storyline.

We start off with Michael Lane in slightly more imaginative Azrael armor, something like his suit in Arkham City, and his search through Gotham for Jean Paul Valley, his predecessor and erstwhile colleague from the Order of Saint Dumas. The Order here is portrayed in the same manner as in their earliest appearances; small in number but incredibly wealthy, and very much stagnant in the inner circle with ambitious outer members trying to get in. The audience is informed that Valley left the Order by beating his handler half-to-death after refusing to carry out some kind of order in Gotham, and the subsequent fallout led to the decimation of the Order when it got caught between a rock (the Bat-Family) and a hard place (Ra's Al Ghul and the League of Assassins). Lane's whole mission is to find him and execute vengeance.

We find out that the Bat-Family kept in contact with Jean Paul until a few years ago. We know he knew Tim, Dick, Babs and Bruce, but the details are kept vague enough that no continuity alarms are registered. Jean Paul disappeared afterwards, and Lane begins his search by breaking into police headquarters to search their files. Here he first comes into conflict with Damian and Bruce, and we find out he was part of the Three Batmen from Morrison's storyline but disappeared after the helicopter explosion. Lane was taken in by the Order and healed, his mental programming broken and his body mended. Whereas Valley had a complex "System" put in place as a child to become Azrael, Lane won his position through his efforts on behalf of the Order.

After some debate on the morality of Lane's actions and Valley's guilt, Lane sets off an explosion to allow his escape and destroy his trail. The Bat-Family gets together and manages to put together that Lane found that one of Valley's old companions, reformed drunk Brian, has reported incidents in which minor felons and miscreants harassing him have been left badly injured in a small slum outside of Gotham. Bruce relates that once he left the Order, Valley's "System" slowly started to deteriorate his mind, locking out his personalities and ranging from catatonic to Azrael mode at different intervals.

Lane finds Brian and while interrogating him, is confronted by Valley, mute and unstable, who puts up an excellent, overwhelming onslaught but falls apart when his mind starts to lock up. Since Lane sees that he can capture Valley, he does so and offers him to the Order's inner circle for trial. they actually like that and congratulate Lane, informing him that he will guard their safe house while they try and "give him penance," actually attempting to find out what he remembers of some of their lost secrets; it turns out the Order that saved Lane is only a splinter, since the Order was fractured and lost after their fall.

Batman and crew show up and engage Lane and the Order's other goons. Eventually, Lane is confronted by the freed Valley, who was put back together just enough by the Order that he would talk and managed to use his Gotham training to escape and find his own armor. Awesome flame sword duel ensues, Lane discovers that his Order played a part in the destruction of his original neighborhood at the behest of Dr. Hurt, and eventually submits to Valley's mercy. Valley knows he still has issues and proposes they track down the rest of the Order, since if there is a branch doing good they need help and if there are branches being bad, they must be stopped.

That souns pretty cool but the endgame of JPV's mission is a lot similar to the one on Talon.