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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    Then Barr wouldn't have had a series.
    Good! "Batman & The Outsiders" wasn't really that good so Mike W. Barr could have become the new writer on "Brave & The Bold" (just canceling the series with the highest on average quality of the bat-books, good idea...). I'm a Barr fan BTW.

  2. #62
    Cimmerian Conan The Barbarian's Avatar
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    I love Superman 4, it’s one of my favorite movies and gave me the most joy as a kid, hell I just finished watching it again today
    "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women." - Conan

  3. #63
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    Good! "Batman & The Outsiders" wasn't really that good so Mike W. Barr could have become the new writer on "Brave & The Bold" (just canceling the series with the highest on average quality of the bat-books, good idea...). I'm a Barr fan BTW.
    Incorrect. Batman and the Outsiders was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    But, the problem with looking at either BatO or DKR, for Superman inspiration, is that those are both largely BATMAN, stories. In both, Superman plays a support role/plot device. I really have no issue with how Superman was portrayed in DKR, because it wasn't his story. I wouldn't, however, be interested in reading that same version of a character in his own book.

    So I can understand some of the concern regarding Snyder's DKR comments.
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  4. #64

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    Nope, not gonna happen. If you like DKR then you don't like or get Superman in my book. That's the way I see it.
    LOLs were had.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Nope, not gonna happen. If you like DKR then you don't like or get Superman in my book. That's the way I see it.
    Everytime I see Superman called "Clark" all I can see is Miller's Batman sneering it at him. If he is to addressed by a first name, I'd rather it be Kal. Plus I consider Superman and Clark to be different characters.
    I ignore him because I find him to be a jerk.
    You sound like you need therapy if thats how much you obsess over Miller's Batstories. He's hardly the first one to call him that. If anything you're a jerk for saying I don't get or like Superman for liking DKR. There are multiple interpretations of Superman and they'll equally valid, you seem to only like your interpretation and think that it's the only one that can exist and all fans of the other are not "real" fans. The "real" fan argument shows that you're not a logical fan, but an illogical nostalgic fanboy.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Everytime I see Superman called "Clark" all I can see is Miller's Batman sneering it at him. If he is to addressed by a first name, I'd rather it be Kal. Plus I consider Superman and Clark to be different characters.
    The name Clark Kent is way more iconic than Kal.
    I address Superman as Kal, but most people know Superman as Clark Kent and calling Superman Clark is perfectly fine.
    Anyone who would have a problem with people calling Superman Clark sounds completely and utterly ridiculous to me.

  7. #67
    البطل الجبار BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    I will never understand how any Superman fan can tolerate his treatment in that series, sorry. I'm not going to be convinced by anyone that it did not degrade Superman. If it didn't degrade Superman it wouldn't have pissed me off. I don't like it as a Batman book, either. I just don't like that book or it's sequel at all. Those books and ASBAR all piss me off.
    Well even big fans of DKR hate TDKSB and ASBAR. I like (again LIKE) DKR as a Batman story not a Superman story, there are Superman stories I like that degrade Batman as a character too. Like Red Son and Kingdom Come, it's an Elseworld story.

    My friend is big Batman fan and yet he loves Batman and Robin movie and dislikes Nolan's Batman, that puzzles me but at the same time I'm not going to act like a closed-minded elitist and insult him by saying he doesn't get Batman because clearly he does plus I like Superman III and IV, which are terrible movies.


    By the way he's always been called Clark even in Pre-Crisis, so I don't see your point. On the plus side nice to see more people who think Maggin is the best Superman writer, him and Swan should've written the "final" Pre-Crisis story not Alan Moore.
    Last edited by BBally; 12-19-2012 at 07:56 AM.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

  8. #68
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Let's put it this way: if Snyder said he thought DKR sucked I'd probably be doing fist pumps and running to my lcs. As for fans, their tastes make no sense to me. I imagine there's fans of the Wasp who like and defend that Ultimate Marvel thing where Blob ate her or whatever it was (I don't read Marvel).

    To ME, DKR is garbage and if it doesn't piss you off, then you don't get or like Superman, but that's just how I feel. By pissed off, I mean pissed off as in pissed at a comic book pissed off, it's not like I'm hulking out over it or anything. I know it's probably (actually certainly) a ridiculous way to feel, but that's the way I feel.
    The most surprising thing is that DKR is being mentioned as Superman related. I think that's the only weird thing. But Superman IV is definitely a Superman source while DKR isn't. Still think that doesn't mean that much except a person's taste definitely doesn't mesh with mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Incorrect. Batman and the Outsiders was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    But, the problem with looking at either BatO or DKR, for Superman inspiration, is that those are both largely BATMAN, stories. In both, Superman plays a support role/plot device. I really have no issue with how Superman was portrayed in DKR, because it wasn't his story. I wouldn't, however, be interested in reading that same version of a character in his own book.

    So I can understand some of the concern regarding Snyder's DKR comments.
    Well, I tend to avoid sliced bread but BatO was pretty good but I still tend like it for reasons other than Batman. But you are so right that Batman material doesn't usually lend itself to great Superman material.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Well even big fans of DKR hate TDKSB and ASBAR. I like (again LIKE) DKR as a Batman story not a Superman story, there are Superman stories I like that degrade Batman as a character too. Like Red Son and Kingdom Come, it's an Elseworld story.

    My friend is big Batman fan and yet he loves Batman and Robin movie and dislikes Nolan's Batman, that puzzles me but at the same time I'm not going to act like a closed-minded elitist and insult him by saying he doesn't get Batman because clearly he does plus I like Superman III and IV, which are terrible movies.
    I'm one of those that liked the Batman and Robin movie. That doesn't affect how I felt about Nolan's. Those were really well done films. But they aren't my ideal version of Batman either. What's great is we've had all these version of Batman to pick from (comics, movies, television) and I can understand why looking at Batman material for influences for Superman is worrisome. Especially when we don't have as much choice in other media outside comics and one of the comic influences isn't even a Superman item.

  9. #69
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    I have to wonder why the assumption is that simply because Snyder says he likes or is inspired by Dark Knight Returns that he means he appreciated or agreed with all aspects of Superman's characterization in Miller's story. Couldn't it just as easily be that Snyder looks to Dark Knight Returns as a inspiration for a particular theme or plot? In other words, Superman is portrayed as the establishment figure in contrast to Batman. Perhaps Snyder seeks to similarly test Superman but have him respond differently. I believe a writer can enjoy a story for what it is yet also appreciate it because it spurs new ways of thinking about characters, including how not to write them.

  10. #70
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    Good! "Batman & The Outsiders" wasn't really that good so Mike W. Barr could have become the new writer on "Brave & The Bold"
    Not that it really makes a difference to the conversation, but Barr was already the new writer on BatB leading up to its cancellation.


    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    On the plus side nice to see more people who think Maggin is the best Superman writer, him and Swan should've written the "final" Pre-Crisis story not Alan Moore.
    Maggin and Swan (and Maggin by himself) already told enough about Superman's future within regular issues, and I'd rather have that than the kind of story they might have been forced to tell in a "final" issue.

    Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened" isn't the real final story of the Bronze Age Superman (and certainly not the final "pre-Crisis" story, as it came out about a half year after the Crisis had already ended. It was just an Imaginary Story in the vein of so many classic Imaginary Stories of the past, like Siegel's 'Death of Superman'. A lot of people seem to miss that since Imaginary Stories had mostly died out by the end of the Silver Age, but "Whatever Happened" is not an in-continuity story.

  11. #71
    البطل الجبار BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post

    Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened" isn't the real final story of the Bronze Age Superman (and certainly not the final "pre-Crisis" story, as it came out about a half year after the Crisis had already ended. It was just an Imaginary Story in the vein of so many classic Imaginary Stories of the past, like Siegel's 'Death of Superman'. A lot of people seem to miss that since Imaginary Stories had mostly died out by the end of the Silver Age, but "Whatever Happened" is not an in-continuity story.
    The problem is that people consider it as a final Pre-Crisis Superman story despite being an imaginary story.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

  12. #72
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    Yeah I'm one of those people who considers it the last Pre-Crisis Superman story.

  13. #73
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    The problem is that people consider it as a final Pre-Crisis Superman story despite being an imaginary story.
    Did DC Comics Presents # 97 postdate Whatever Happen to the Man of Tomorrow?

    I believe that was the last Pre Crisis Story and a very interesting and quite disturbing ending to say the least with Kryptonite and dead bodies from Argo City littering the Metropolis streets because of Mr. Mxyzptlk

  14. #74
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Hmmm.... I've been a Superman fan since I was a kid, I've actually seen Superman IV in theatre (I would rather rewatch that than SR), I grew up reading Pre-Crisis Superman stories, I've got a Superman t-shirt, cup and key chain.

    And yet I don't get the character because I like DKR, gee who would've thought
    Because in his view, Superman would never do what he did there and he would never lose to Batman. Even though he ignores the rest of the context of the story and focuses on the loss. As Mr. Holmes said, it is a narrow minded view of who and what Superman is all about in that story. He doesn't have to like the story, but to think that Frank Miller didn't know how to write the story correctly is a serious misunderstanding of the character in said story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Well I enjoyed Red Son too but I see it as different than DKR. DKR seemed to derail Superman for the sake of Batman. I felt like Kal in that story was not at all like anything I've read and therefore served no purpose being Superman. It could have been anybody in that role.
    But Superman wasn't derailed in TDKR. Clark made a choice to keep fighting for the people of the Earth, even if it meant making a compromise about working for the government. He didn't quit like Bruce did. Clark even does his best to try and save everyone's life on Corto Maltese. When he confronts Bruce, he's not doing it because he's been ordered to. He's doing it to stop the government from killing Bruce, because of what he's done with the Mutant gang and the S.O.B., as well as the alleged murder of the Joker. He doesn't even want to hurt Bruce, which is why he lets him get in more shots instead of pummeling him into the ground like a nail. And at the end, he lets Bruce go when he realizes that he's still alive and had faked his death. That shows that Clark's character is true to the standards of what came before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleef
    Well, Miller got paid for the art. I do not see the need to be thankful for that. It's not like he did it for free out of love for Superman.
    Neither did anyone else that worked on Superman #400. They all got paid for it.

    There are many writers these days who work at the superhero business but they do not really like them at all. Just because there's the money. (Not necessarily a bad thing since in the good old days most writers would rather see there work for comic books as mere jobs to pay their bills).
    Which is the opposite of when Miller did Batman and Daredevil, because he liked them and had stories that he wanted to tell. He even had a Superman story lined up in 1996, four years before he began work on TDKSA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa
    I think the League should have voted on it and those in favor would have went to help Batman. And I think Superman would have voted to go-he is a citizen of every nation on Earth, and he had involved himself in civil wars in other countries before, In fact, I remember a World's Finest where both he and Batman interjected themselves into a conflict and ended up battling against a South American dictator.
    Which would defeat the purpose of the Outsiders, which was to go against the rules of the JLA and to do things their own way. Hence the title, "The Outsiders". They're outside the law and fight for the rights of the individual, regardless of political and legal ramifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by stk
    Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened" isn't the real final story of the Bronze Age Superman (and certainly not the final "pre-Crisis" story, as it came out about a half year after the Crisis had already ended. It was just an Imaginary Story in the vein of so many classic Imaginary Stories of the past, like Siegel's 'Death of Superman'. A lot of people seem to miss that since Imaginary Stories had mostly died out by the end of the Silver Age, but "Whatever Happened" is not an in-continuity story.
    1. As the intro for the story goes, all of them are imaginary.

    2. It was commissioned as the final chapter, even in spite of it being called an Imaginary Story by Schwartz. Yes, it went against the stories written by Maggin, but that's because Maggin's work pre-dated the Crisis and did not reflect what had changed. Moore's story was designed to come after the Crisis and deal with all the then relevant issues. Such as Kara's death and Captain Marvel's presence of Earth-1, as well as dissect what it meant to be Superman in spite of the tragedy, so that when it ended, there was the usual glimmer of hope and good feeling.
    Last edited by Mat001; 12-19-2012 at 12:06 PM.

  15. #75
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah I'm one of those people who considers it the last Pre-Crisis Superman story.
    Despite being neither pre-Crisis nor in-continuity?

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