Final Crisis - Invisibles Connection?

[Tom Strong]

Hi all,

I started reading the Invisibles and wanted to ask about the first issue. Did anyone think the villain seemed a lot like Darkseid? Visually he looked like the Boss Dark Side from the first issue of Final Crisis. The man constantly talks about how overrated individuality is and how underrated conformity is which reminded me of Darkseid's goals. Is this just Morrison using the same themes, or is there a deliberate connection?

[Mr. Holmes]

No doubt there's a huge Kirby influence on Invisibles and Morrison in general (it isn't just Final Crisis).

There's lots of talk about new gods and new religions. The Invisibles resemble the Forever People from Fourth World, these kind of hippie deities.

And yes Morrison does weave together a narrative that strings through all his different works, and reuses themes.

[MoloPinna]

Доброй ночи!

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[T Hedge Coke]

There's a lot of similarities (and of course, Final Crisis and The Filth are really strongly connected in many ways, as The Filth is to The Invisibles).

There's a symbol that appears in both Final Crisis (during Batman's imprisonment by Mokkari and Simyan) and The Invisibles (on the phonebooth KM is bleeding out, sitting in) that has to mean something, but I've never worked out what. It's probably fairly simple, I just don't recognize it.

[Tom Strong]

Interesting.

I also noticed the main character does that 'TT.' thing.

[Sailor Moon]

Been awhile since I've read The Invisibles, are you talking about the doctor at the reform school that Jack get sent to? I don't remember him looking that much like Boss Darkside, but yeah, he's obviously playing sort of a similar role to what Darkseid was doing in FC. Outside the theme reuse and Morrison's usual metafiction, I didn't see much more connection between them. I only read FC once, though.

[boine]

No doubt there's a huge Kirby influence on Invisibles and Morrison in general (it isn't just Final Crisis).

There's lots of talk about new gods and new religions. The Invisibles resemble the Forever People from Fourth World, these kind of hippie deities.

And yes Morrison does weave together a narrative that strings through all his different works, and reuses themes.

Interesting I always thought Morrison got into the New God stuff around the time he was writing Seven Solders and Final Crisis, I know he got into them later in life did not know they also influenced The Invisibles.

[Sailor Moon]

I figured he was always into them, since they would have been some of the stuff coming out when he was young and getting into American comics. It's kind of hard to believe a mainstream comic writer wasn't fairly familiar with one of the king's biggest opuses.

[boine]

I figured he was always into them, since they would have been some of the stuff coming out when he was young and getting into American comics. It's kind of hard to believe a mainstream comic writer wasn't fairly familiar with one of the king's biggest opuses.

He knew of them but did not get into them until he was older he mentions that in the Fourth World Omnibus introduction he wrote

Edit: Looking at his introduction again he said at the time it was to much for him to understand as a child

"...Kirby's work operated at a higher frequency than my pre-adolescent brain was wired up to match; his operatic visions of burning planets and snarling sci-fi deities left me with an inner shudder of the numinous and uncanny. Kirby's dramas were staged across Jungian vistas of raw symbol and storm... "

[Sailor Moon]

Ah, okay, that makes sense. I would think that would be something he would have known about, but not quite understanding it, yeah, I get that. When he wrote The Invisibles he was much older (what, around 30ish, I guess, since he's 50 now), so I'm guessing he was able to go back and decipher it better. I don't know if he's said how much that was influential or not.

[BananaPhone]

Just finished reading the Invisibles and a lot off its themes were indeed echoed in Final Crisis. The Superman 3D stuff on the nature of narrative in particular struck me as similar. Overal I think Invisibles did it quite a bit better. For the scope of Final Crisis at an event it didn't really do much to shake up the status quo of the overal DC universe apart from the Batman thing.

[carabas]

For the scope of Final Crisis at an event it didn't really do much to shake up the status quo of the overal DC universe apart from the Batman thing.

That's not how events should be judged, and Batman was already missing after his confrontation with Hurt at the end of R.I.P., so Final Crisis had negilgible impact on Batman.
It just changed who/what Hurt really is and why Batman was missing for a year.

[BananaPhone]

Would have actually preferred it if the Batman stuff played out entirely in RIP rather than being inserted in a crossover event. The two issues where he's captive by Darkseid are great but it still felt like it was in there because of editorial mandate rather than a natural story progression. Then again, it's Morisson and he's not necessarily constrained by earthly logic.

[Sailor Moon]

That's not how events should be judged, and Batman was already missing after his confrontation with Hurt at the end of R.I.P., so Final Crisis had negilgible impact on Batman.
It just changed who/what Hurt really is and why Batman was missing for a year.

Huh? I mean everything from Dick becoming Batman to Batman, Inc. was spurred due to what happened in FC. And it changed Hurt? I wasn't aware of that.

Would have actually preferred it if the Batman stuff played out entirely in RIP rather than being inserted in a crossover event. The two issues where he's captive by Darkseid are great but it still felt like it was in there because of editorial mandate rather than a natural story progression. Then again, it's Morisson and he's not necessarily constrained by earthly logic.

That's an interesting thought. I doubt it was editorial, though. Morrison, I think, is more or less above editorial tinkerings on that level, but if that was the case, I think he managed to put it in pretty seemlessly.

[carabas]

Huh? I mean everything from Dick becoming Batman to Batman, Inc. was spurred due to what happened in FC. And it changed Hurt? I wasn't aware of that.

Dick was always going to be Batman. What is the final image of R.I.P.? Dick holding the cowl with Bruce vanished.
You can go right from that to the first issue of Batman & Robin.

Hurt was going to be [some form of] the devil. All Final Crisis changed is linking Hurt to Darkseid, who is probably more the devil of the DCU than any occupant of hell.

Without Final Crisis, The Return Of Bruce Wayne would likely have been very different and not a trip through time, but he'd still have returned to found Batman Inc.

The two issues where he's captive by Darkseid are great but it still felt like it was in there because of editorial mandate rather than a natural story progression.

That's because they were. Or rather Batman being involved in Final Crisis was, and Morrison felt he had to go a bit deeper into that than what he had space for in the main series.