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  1. #1006
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Season 3 was actually bad enough that the producers made a deal with ABC to end the series with season 6. That way they could structure the final three seasons and work towards that end.

    But whatever, how the series ends is not relevant to my point. My point was that they end. Everything ends.
    Sure, but not necessarily on purpose.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  2. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    I walked around a comic shop for the first time in a while yesterday, and as I struggled to find something that I wanted, it occurred to me what the main problem with comics versus other forms of media is. The lack of one all important element of any good, bad or great story.

    An ending.

    I don't mean to say that super hero comics can't be great. But the vast majority of the super hero books that are considered by the world at large as "literature" are finite stories, even if the finite story stars a character like Batman (see The Dark Knight Returns). I am also not trying to say that there isn't a market for never ending super hero comics like what DC and Marvel publish. But it should be a niche, not the dominant genre.

    If you really want to talk about "saving" comics, then IMO you have to first start with the content. If more people saw comics as a legitimate form of art, literature and story telling, it could get out of the ghetto that its in. That isn't the only factor to consider by any means, but I feel like it is the place to start. Then comes the problems in distribution and so forth. Will this kind of shift cost publishers like DC and Marvel parts of its audience? Yes, it most certainly will. But legitimizing the form would open up markets that comics may have never been able to touch otherwise, which would replace those lost readers.

    Every other form of entertainment features stories with beginnings, middles, and ends. Even television shows that run forever and begin to feel like they might not ever end do eventually. Every classic piece of literature or critically acclaimed movie has an ending. Comics that have crossed over into literature all have endings, too; Maus being probably the best example of this. It has been part of college reading lists for a long time now.

    Just my opinion, of course. Posting such things on a forum full of fans of the type of story telling I am criticizing probably won't win too many to my side.

    EDIT: I am also not suggesting that DC and Marvel should lose their market share. I am suggesting they stop acting like a comic book company and start acting like a publisher.
    Only creator ownership will enable comics to have "endings", for example Manga is that way (creator owned) and all manga tories end enetually no matter how popular (even the uber popular Dragonball Z ended).

    When you have a corporation owning characters theres noway they would ever just let things end.

  3. #1008
    Elder Member DeadXMan's Avatar
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    frist: tar and feather Dan Didio, Joe Quesada, Rob Liefeild, Greg Land, Axel Alonso, Matt Fraction, Brian Michael Bendis, Loeb and Jim Lee

    second: Problem solved
    Cyclops ad portas

  4. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadXMan View Post
    frist: tar and feather Dan Didio, Joe Quesada, Rob Liefeild, Greg Land, Axel Alonso, Matt Fraction, Brian Michael Bendis, Loeb and Jim Lee

    second: Problem solved
    please go away... some where far far away

  5. #1010
    Old Reader ForEverAncien's Avatar
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    The sad part of that...it is so true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hehey View Post
    Only creator ownership will enable comics to have "endings", for example Manga is that way (creator owned) and all manga tories end enetually no matter how popular (even the uber popular Dragonball Z ended).

    When you have a corporation owning characters theres noway they would ever just let things end.

  6. #1011
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Corporate owned things can only end while still making money if they start up again pronto.

    Nolan's Batman ends, reboot planned. Batman cartoon ends, new series coming soon. Young Justice cancelled, Teen Titans returns.

    Doesn't work well in an expanded universe.
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
    Brian C Wood

  7. #1012
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Part of the reason events sell as well as they do is you buy them and then they end, no need to buy more.

    On the other hand when comics were selling at their best there was absolutely no end in sight for almost any of them. Self contained 1 issue stories, if there is enough meat to them, would sell to the causal reader who would be more willing to buy a comic every couple of months instead of committing each month.

  8. #1013
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    Events sell because of the gimmicky nature of it. They basically sucker in people who want to see the next gimmick to so and so superhero character. This basically make a vicious cycle of baiting in mindless fans, while becoming more and more inaccessible to non-readers.

    I said this before, but I went over to a new Barnes and Noble in the mall, and the manga section was three times as large as the comics/gn section, and it was crowded with girls. The diversity here is basically why Japan is taking the cake at bringing new people and appealing to broader bases.

    Not only that, but these fans who have dominated the buying base want to read the same thing over and over again. So that's what they get. Any attempts at diversity (look at how the sales are for Demon Knights and I, Vampire) will blow up in the publishers' face. The superhero genre hasn't been able to shift paradigms at all, despite attempts to do so in some books.
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 01-21-2013 at 12:29 AM.

  9. #1014
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    There is also the issue of advertising. It is easy to advertise an event. How do you advertise single issue stories? What you have to do is advertise the book instead of the individual issues.

    There's also a difference bewteen Japanese business culture and American business culture. In Japan they tend to more concerned with long term gain compared to America, where everything is about the short term gain. The constant events are a symptom of that.

  10. #1015
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    I think DC advertised the New 52 pretty well. I had stopped reading comics before I knew about the relaunch, and I found the advertisement in an airport in Singapore. Not where I expected that at all.

    Part of the problem is the limited distribution in the direct market. It just grossly limits availability so the mass advertising goes in vain. I guess digital is the alternative for now, and that's going to take some time to grow. Even then, there needs to be a print alternative.

    Barnes and Noble sales a handful of comics in the magazine rack. Anyone know if this is helping sell comics?

  11. #1016
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    all these people complain about these big events, but because of them, we now have Marvel Now!... a lot of good titles, with even more promising ones ahead. plus its main goal is to make it a more cohesive universe.

    Marvel has been going in that direction for about 8-10 years now, "big events" shaping what Marvel titles would be about.

    So I don't know what people have been reading if they don't like these events.. Most of the main titles are affected.

  12. #1017
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    But were individual issues advertised? And is that advertisement anywhere near the same level? Have you seen advertisements for 'this issue Superman fights Braniac'?

  13. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    But were individual issues advertised? And is that advertisement anywhere near the same level? Have you seen advertisements for 'this issue Superman fights Braniac'?
    are you referring to me, casue if you are I have no idea what youre trying to say

  14. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    But were individual issues advertised? And is that advertisement anywhere near the same level? Have you seen advertisements for 'this issue Superman fights Braniac'?
    Individual characters were advertised, with promo art from those books. Is that what you mean?

    I know people on the Batman forum hate me for saying these kind of things, but part of me actually wants to watch the industry just go down. I'm kind of tired of favorite books getting cancelled while crap spikes up the sales charts because they tie in to the latest, stupidest gimmick.

    This is an old article, but Steven Grant nails it on the head. http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=23675
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 01-21-2013 at 12:58 AM.

  15. #1020
    Lazer Faced Goggindowner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hehey View Post
    Only creator ownership will enable comics to have "endings", for example Manga is that way (creator owned) and all manga tories end enetually no matter how popular (even the uber popular Dragonball Z ended).

    When you have a corporation owning characters theres noway they would ever just let things end.
    Which is why I said DC and Marvel need to stop acting like comic book companies and start acting like publishers. They have become about their characters, not their publishing.

    There will always be a market for what they are selling currently, but if they want long term viability they need to start slowly integrating self contained, creator owned work into their ranks. Things that have nothing to do with their shared universes. They need to have an Image or Dark Horse style publishing arm working along side their current one.

    I would actually like to see larger publishers of more than comics, such as Random House or Penguin Group, take on a comic publishing arm, maybe acquire one of the smaller publishers like IDW or Avatar Press when (not if) the comic industry collapses.
    Writers before artists.
    Artists before concepts.
    Concepts before characters.

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