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  1. #721
    Tai'shar Manetheren Jadenewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    I understand perfectly, but when you kicked the toys out your pram you missed actually understanding the points being discussed about accessibility and storytelling.
    Yeah like I said no point with further discussion.
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  2. #722
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    *Wein put him on the team, but he was no teacher's pet, save Cyclops, the rest of the team were his creations as well
    Wein put Logan on the team because of the popular response from Hulk fans and a trust on Marvel editorial to allow this.

    If Wolverine was Byrne's avatar, that doesn't make him a mary sue. Maybe a writer's pet of sorts, although Byrne didn't put him there, just made him popular.
    True. It was Claremont and Miller working on the graphic novel that made Logan a superstar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa
    I actually don't mind Punisher if he is portrayed as a villain and it is made clear that he is in the wrong and what he does is wrong. It's the glorification of murder that I dislike
    Wow, I guess you hate a lot of heroes that kill. Like Harry Callahan, Rooster Cogburn, Paul Kersey and others.

    I just think you can't see Wolverine as the Mary Sue that he is because you've never experienced a Marvel Universe without him.
    How is that different from Superman and Lois Lane, who is modeled after Jerry Siegel and his wife Joanne?

    Quote Originally Posted by king mob
    Been there done that, and there's some superhero comics published today I wouldn't give to children.
    What was the reaction from the kids?

    So no, you don't have kids or know people who do have kids because you didn't answer the question.
    No, I don't.

    Great, but the majority of kids I've spoken to over the years aren't the same and again, all I'm seeing is a general disregard for expanding the superhero market and making stories interesting and accessible, rather than being decided upon by accountants and marketing.
    I didn't say that. If the kids want to read it, they can. Content of comics isn't going to put off children. It might to parents, but your mileage will vary for them.

  3. #723
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    That's not it, it has to match the full criteria to be a Mary Sue. Wolverine is not the reader's avatar and barely qualifies as Byrne's. And even if he was, there're are still plenty of bulletpoints to match. Can't go half the way. Can't really be one of many new members, much less when they are 90% of the current team. Can't be experienced and qualified. That's just nt how sues work.

    You don't enjoy anti-heroes, that's what everybody agrees Wolverine is. Nobody is ever going to tell you that he's a MS, because the meaning of the term, as popularly accepted, is precisely what excludes wolverine. It doesn't matter that they changed the MU (something a MS woul never be able to pull), he's not a Mary Sue. Not even a writer's pet (since, Claremont eventually managed to make him widely popular). He's an anti-hero.
    I took this test and punched in traits that are true to Wolverine and scored a 116...a Mary Sue is a 56 or higher. He's a sue.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  4. #724
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    I took this test and punched in traits that are true to Wolverine and scored a 116...a Mary Sue is a 56 or higher. He's a sue.
    I'd be curious to see how you answered the questions.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  5. #725
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    I'd be curious to see how you answered the questions.
    Good example of the questions:

    If your character has a short temper, sharp wit, snarky attitude, or is otherwise prone to verbal assaults, are the tongue-lashings and/or snarkings xe gives other characters always deserved and/or justified?
    If your character is openly defiant or disrespectful toward authority figures, is your character always justified and in the right?
    Are any other actions that get your character into trouble with authority always justified from your point of view?
    Do authority figures punish your character more harshly than they would have punished his or her peers under the same circumstances?
    Do authority figures not punish your character when they probably would have punished his or her peers under the same circumstances?
    Is your character easily provoked to violence - but only gets into fights with characters who truly deserve the beating they get?
    Are The Rules of the universe bent or broken for your character? (Like joining a group despite being too old or too young.) (Do not click if the rules catch up to your character and xe does not find a way to permanently cheat or circumvent them.)
    Does your character have any of the following psychological disorders or conditions for the following reasons?

    Antisocial Personality Disorder - to explain your character's Jerkass Loner personality?

    There's a bunch of other questions on there...he's clearly a sue. Character introduced into an already established series who comes to dominate it. He can kick everyone's ass in the MU and all the women either have slept with him or wish to sleep with him. The character is a piece of crap.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  6. #726

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    I took this test and punched in traits that are true to Wolverine and scored a 116...a Mary Sue is a 56 or higher. He's a sue.
    You're not supposed to hit every box. Mary Sue is a fairly common term, and Wolverine is very well known, good luck trying to find anyone agreeing with you.

    Dude... are you remotely aware of what Antisocial Personality Disorder means? Wolverine has a conscience and truly cares for people.

    Give or take one or two, the questions you copied would be possitive for Batman, Punisher, Azrael, Guy Gardner, Lobo, Green Arrow, Huntress, Jonah Hex, and even Harry Callahan and every other anti-hero.

    A very flawed view is to consider Wolverine as "introduced into an already established series who comes to dominate it"... Wolverine started along with a new incarnation of the team in which Cyclops and Professor X were the only founding members.

    You also forget to frame Wolverine properly. A Sue for which writer? Since Wein didn't use him as a Sue, and he introduced a whole new roster you already have a weak case. Even weaker when a number of writers have supported the antihero portrayal. You should have answered the questions considering "Byrne's Wolverine", which rules out every single question treating him as a newcomer.

    There are also a lot of questions like "Clothing chosen because it makes your character look super sexy and/or badass? ", "Does your character become a genetically, scientifically, cybernetically, or magically altered/enhanced being, possibly with new powers?" or "Clothing that is realistically impractical or improper for the character's situation, but looks cool?" which basically apply to every superhero.
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 01-08-2013 at 02:39 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  7. #727
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    You're not supposed to hit every box. Mary Sue is a fairly common term, and Wolverine is very well known, good luck trying to find anyone agreeing with you.
    I hardly hit every box. I stopped after the second test, actually. And while Wolverine has his fans, there are people with taste who dislike him.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  8. #728

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    I hardly hit every box. I stopped after the second test, actually. And while Wolverine has his fans, there are people with taste who dislike him.
    You just contradicted youself. You got 116 in only 2 tests. The second, by the way, only applies when the writer created the fictional universe as well (doesn't work for shared universes unless it's a new title about all new characters in which the classics barely appear).

    You were supposed to skip test 2, 3 (not a newcomer) and 4 (not RPG). You were suposed to do part 5, which takes off points.

    I got 43 for Wolverine. I avoided checking a lot of boxes about him being special for his race, since as a mutant, he's not particularly blessed. Also, as one of may mutants, his power is healing factor, which makes a lot of his accomplishments less exceptional.

    I edited my previous post.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  9. #729

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    No, I'm not. Go back and see the discussion. Bane was worth millions to WB just now. That was what I was arguing all along: this potential is worth a lot to WB.
    Yes, you are. Nobody is claiming that there are absolutely no new character of prominence. Just that most of the new characters rarely get prominence.

    I'll agree that WB goes for potential, but it's mainly about the Big Properties that sell better and show great success in other media. The names are mainly the same since the silver age and specially since the golden age. For over 70 years, the big selling products are Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin, a Flash, a Green Lantern, Hawkman, Aquaman and Green Arrow. Their main rogues and supproting cast were mostly created bewteen 1938 and 1968. Very few like Swamp Thing, Lobo or Jonah Hex (all of them over 30 years old).

    You have more of an angle, forgetting about new properties and focusing about characters. Legacies are more like refried properties, but they do count as new characters, even if WB only seems interested in a Robin, a Batgirl and maybe a Nightwing. Young Justice is the first cashing on the multigenerational legacy infestation (and I agree that it might lead to more of that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    Btw, I will answer to your previous post once I gather the energy to stand another discussion with you.
    The hard part is not me, but the fact that it'll spawn other lines with other people not sharing your view.
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 01-08-2013 at 03:57 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  10. #730
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    You won't get it while Marvel and DC are overblown boys clubs, nor will it happen while these companies pander to the audience. Then of course you have to find people who can create regardless of race or gender.
    Then the audience needs to be diversified and the best way to do that is to start creating stories and enviroments where women would enjoy working and reading. The latter really isn't that hard. If you look at books that are out there there are some really bang up writers and I'm sure that, if given a chance, they could write for comics just as well.

    In regard to Wolverine as a mary sue, or rather in this case Gary Stu, I would say one could technically write any character to be such a character. But there's a distiction with the character.

    Wolverine, under the hands of a good writer can become a very nuanced character. But when you use him in the worng way, emphisize only his "Physical" attitubutes and his attitude then he becomes more a gary stu like character. Same can be said for Spiderman and several other characters.

  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Yes, you are. Nobody is claiming that there are absolutely no new character of prominence. Just that most of the new characters rarely get prominence.
    Dude, just don't post if you don't have anything to add to the discussion. You clearly didn't read what was said or didn't understand it. Go back and read or don't. Don't care. Stop replying to me. You exaust me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    I'll agree that WB goes for potential, but it's mainly about the Big Properties that sell better and show great success in other media. The names are mainly the same since the silver age and specially since the golden age. For over 70 years, the big selling products are Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin, a Flash, a Green Lantern, Hawkman, Aquaman and Green Arrow. Their main rogues and supproting cast were mostly created bewteen 1938 and 1968. Very few like Swamp Thing, Lobo or Jonah Hex (all of them over 30 years old).

    You have more of an angle, forgetting about new properties and focusing about characters. Legacies are more like refried properties, but they do count as new characters, even if WB only seems interested in a Robin, a Batgirl and maybe a Nightwing. Young Justice is the first cashing on the multigenerational legacy infestation (and I agree that it might lead to more of that).

    To another poster I would have said more, but with you I'll just post a image, since words don't seem to pass through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    The hard part is not me, but the fact that it'll spawn other lines with other people not sharing your view.
    No, no. It's you. I'm 100% sure of that. I don't mind arguing with other people. They don't circle around things until they tired the other guy with nonsense like you do. That's very much your style. Other people actually argue stuff.

    Yes, I was very much rude and feel free to report this, it will probably be deleted. But I'm so tired of you. PLEASE, add me to your ignore list.

  12. #732

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    Dude, just don't post if you don't have anything to add to the discussion. You clearly didn't read what was said or didn't understand it. Go back and read or don't. Don't care. Stop replying to me. You exaust me.




    To another poster I would have said more, but with you I'll just post a image, since words don't seem to pass through.



    No, no. It's you. I'm 100% sure of that. I don't mind arguing with other people. They don't circle around things until they tired the other guy with nonsense like you do. That's very much your style. Other people actually argue stuff.

    Yes, I was very much rude and feel free to report this, it will probably be deleted. But I'm so tired of you. PLEASE, add me to your ignore list.
    Well, that doesn't add anything to the discussion, does it?

    I think you're the one that has trouble understanding words. For the third time:

    Nobody is claiming that there are absolutely no new properties of prominence

    Just that few do (Bane, Atrocitus, Booster), which is why nobody agrees with you that WB keeps DC to produce new stuff and not for the properties. Carabas said: "DC and Marvel haven't really produced new material in decades. Disney and WB would not be interested in it anyways, they paid for the big old names, and smaller ones as well. They want new material, they'll make it themselves. Like The Incredibles". I agree with that, mainly because new characters *rarely* (rarely means that sometimes the opposite happen) make it to the top. The most important heroes are the trinity, all from the 40s. Their most notorious villains and supporting are from that era or, to a secondary degree, the early silver age. DC is clearly about a very valuable set of properties created around 1938 - 1968, although it's not closed to create new ones.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  13. #733

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    doubble post
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  14. #734
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    You just contradicted youself. You got 116 in only 2 tests. The second, by the way, only applies when the writer created the fictional universe as well (doesn't work for shared universes unless it's a new title about all new characters in which the classics barely appear).

    You were supposed to skip test 2, 3 (not a newcomer) and 4 (not RPG). You were suposed to do part 5, which takes off points.

    I got 43 for Wolverine. I avoided checking a lot of boxes about him being special for his race, since as a mutant, he's not particularly blessed. Also, as one of may mutants, his power is healing factor, which makes a lot of his accomplishments less exceptional.

    I edited my previous post.
    Meh, he's a Sue to me and I'll always hate him. And he is portrayed as being exceptionally blessed when you consider nothing can kill him. Most importantly to me, he sucks and he's everything that is wrong with comics and modern culture. I hate the character and would like to see him brutally killed on as many Earths as possible.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  15. #735

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Meh, he's a Sue to me and I'll always hate him. And he is portrayed as being exceptionally blessed when you consider nothing can kill him. Most importantly to me, he sucks and he's everything that is wrong with comics and modern culture. I hate the character and would like to see him brutally killed on as many Earths as possible.
    I agree that hating him and antiheroes in general is a valid view; in particular to those who had to made the transition from modern to postmodern writing. However, I suggest to avoid the Mary Sue claim, it's so excentric for such widely known topics, that it distracts on a bad light from your most insightful points: A culture in which morally gray characters (Batman, Wolverine, Punisher, Guy Gardner, Lobo, Catwoman) are idolized as heroes and the outstanding examples of emotional balance, civic attitude and kindness (Superman, Flash, Elongated Man, Blue Beetle II, Batgirl II, Captain America) are less and less common.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

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