How do we save the Comic Industry

[carabas]

i don't think 17 vols equals only 20 episodes. superman batman public enemies was around the 60 minute mark and superman batman supergirl was was in the 70 minute mark and had stuff taken so basically 1 vol equals 2 episodes. Considering Dragon Ball Z could extended fight scenes for long periods of times among other things I think Marvel could find a way.

You can't just equate 120 pages of relatively episodic Jeph Loeb stories with 120 pages of one Bendis arc.

as for the different audience that is only because more people watch movies then read comics. if a tv show or movie was to follow the ultimate story line i don't think that would turn viewers off. As for using gwen Staceys death that would be allowed. Naruto got away with death on toonami.

Do you recall how Ultimate Gwen Stacy died?

As for not being able to use characters like kitty and johnny like i said before that is just stupidity on rights and such not allowing marvel to use their own characters.

Stupid or not, it's a reality you have to deal with if you're making serious sugestions. You might as well suggest a Spider-Man/Batman buddy movie otherwise.

[king mob]

Yep. Little kids will see that along with this...

Mortal Kombat is the same sort of cartoon violence EC did, while Temple of Doom was exceptionally disturbing for a kids film. It doesn't deal with the fact that the nihilistic violence and rape in superhero comics alienates kids, and of course their parents from buying them superhero comics.

[king mob]

No, they're not.

Yes they are children's characters. Why people get all pissy when that's pointed out is a mystery to me, because that doesn't mean that they can't be read by everyone, but the only way these characters honestly work is as kids characters. Raping Sue Dibney or punching the head off a minor character doesn't make them adult all of a sudden, it just makes the treatment of them dubious.

[king mob]

To be accurate, she didn't "end up" that way. She's not that way now. It's been over a year since the issue or two where she was depicted that way, and she hasn't really been depicted that way since.

Mainly because of some serious rewriting of issues if I understand correctly thanks to the backlash from people.

[king mob]

The comics industry just needs to stop with these incestuous hiring practices and open their doors to more talent. When all the creators are drinking buddies, you invariably end up paying above market rates for some very mediocre and uninspired work, making it almost impossible to cut costs and keep prices competitive no matter how much staff you lay off.

It's part of it, and you'd think that people would remember what happened at Marvel in the 90's, but no, we've got a similar thing now so it's fans turning pro, or 'journalists' turning pro, and most of them haven't read a comic outside superhero comics, or seen a film outside of a genre film, or read a book outside of SF, let alone read newspapers so they churn ideas we've already seen over and over.
You don't have the Gerber's, Starlin's, Moore's, Morrison's or Gaiman's who have done other things apart from write comics, and are better read than the last decades worth of Spider Man, but cutting wages isn't going to help when the only people like to replace the current crowd are more of the same. You have to incentivise creators, so owning characters and stories would be a start but that's not going to happen at Marvel or DC who have made it clear they're going to keep as much IP as possible so it can be exploited into other media.

[king mob]

Comics are pretty ill-suited for showcasing graphic violence

Not at all, they're really very good at it. Using the example of EC again, they did just that and made it spectacular but it's the intent and execution that's the problem with how violence is portrayed in superhero comics today

If you flip through a stack of 90s comics where this was tried, they look much more inane than they do horrifying.

Which is a great example of what I mean.

The same is basically true for blatant sexualization.

Slightly different. The sort of sexual politics of Sue Storm fainting because she was a girl pales into insignificance when you've got male writers throwing around rape as a dramatic tool all the time, not to mention female characters are either objectified or 'sassy' cliches, and the idea of even a two dimensional female character is a rarity.

Content in comics should always be geared toward the one advantage it does have over other forms of entertainment - the ability to pack a limitless level of detail into each page that the reader can take in at his or her own pace.

That's not it at all. Comics can do things film can't because they're not storyboards, no matter what certain creators would have you believe. A page from someone like Charles Burns can be massively effective because of a minimalist style, how he breaks panels down and his use of storytelling, which incidentally is becoming a lost art with superhero artists who are more interested in making each page they sell stand as a solo piece of art rather than part of a comic telling a story. The sort of Widescreen superheroics which started as a experiment and commentary on superheroes by people like Warren Ellis is now just overused to the point of ridicule.

And frankly, the idea of a vibrant and dynamic world, far more than the plot lines of the stories themselves, is what draws readers in and keeps them coming back for more. The drawback of all of this of course is that it requires far more effort on the part of the writers and artists to put out issues, but on the flip side it also means a drastic increase in the level of content and a corresponding rise in the value that customers perceive.

It's stories that attracts people first and foremost. Layering loads and loads onto the world ultimately means nothing if you don't really care about the people you're reading about. Sure, it'll get you some readers, but why should people care about characters they can't relate to, let alone look up to? If you get to the point where Spider Man considers torture to be fine, or Superman is acting like Batman then why bother?

[AJBopp]

Yes they are children's characters. Why people get all pissy when that's pointed out is a mystery to me, because that doesn't mean that they can't be read by everyone, but the only way these characters honestly work is as kids characters. Raping Sue Dibney or punching the head off a minor character doesn't make them adult all of a sudden, it just makes the treatment of them dubious.

That line of reasoning works well if there's an outlier story in which characters or story suddenly and unexpectedly jumps a given threshold temporarily. When it's the norm rather than the exception, it's no longer reasonable to presume they are still children's characters..

[The World]

The comics industry just needs to stop with these incestuous hiring practices and open their doors to more talent. When all the creators are drinking buddies, you invariably end up paying above market rates for some very mediocre and uninspired work, making it almost impossible to cut costs and keep prices competitive no matter how much staff you lay off.

Agree .

[Mat001]

There was quite a bit of difference between the debut of The Punisher and Wolverine and what they eventually became in the 90s.

Wolverine was on the X-Men and was considered a hero, even if it was anti. The Punisher teamed up with Spider-Man more than he fought against him and he always fought the bad guys. So, really, they were heroes.

Yes, it does presume bad parenting. But certainly every parent is not entitled to raise their children how they want, nor should they be.

It's one thing if a parent does nothing with their children at all, or has an addiction, or brings people around that shouldn't be there. But a good parent is one who raises their children right and knows what is best for their child. Not because some doctor told them what to do, but because they know right from wrong and are able to try and teach their kids that.

Film industry ratings are quite a bit different from comic book ratings, actually.

They both have the same type of ratings and they are guidelines for what parents should decide. If a parent chooses to go see an R rated film with their child, then that's their decision to make. The MPAA cannot stop them, no more than the theater owners. The latter can for NC-17 and X. In the case of comics with T for Teens, it is the same deal as PG-13 and R.

I agree that parents have a personal responsibility to judge what is best for their children. But parents need to be held responsible for the judgments they make, as well.

Only if their judgments are criminal. If the parents are the type who will bring someone around that has a criminal record, associated with child endangerment, then they should be held responsible. If they're good, honest people working hard despite their poor status, then they shouldn't be judged. My mother and stepfather should be no more judged for what they did, then the parents of one of my classmates whose father was a pastor and had stricter guidelines for content.

i don't think 17 vols equals only 20 episodes. superman batman public enemies was around the 60 minute mark and superman batman supergirl was was in the 70 minute mark and had stuff taken so basically 1 vol equals 2 episodes.

"Public Enemies" was 75 minutes and had alterations made to it. As well as expanding out the action.

The problem is, Mat, by your logic young kids should be flocking to comics because the content is right up their alley. And they simply aren't. Mortal Kombat: popular. Indiana Jones: popular. Modern american superhero comics: not so much. Shouldn't kids be desperate to get their hands on all this "mature" content?

Oh, wait, that's right. Parents won't buy the books because of that "mature" content (yeah, yeah blah blah parents don't care what their kids read and kids are gonna encounter violence somewhere; but c'mon man, we've already established that your answer to this is that kids get the content through avenues other than their parents buying it for them, which is fine except that no one in this thread gives a flying frack how kids get to read violent material because the discussion is about whether that violent material sells. Again, kids aren't independently wealthy.) and this of course leads to the few kids who are interested in getting into comics turning to The Pirate Bay instead of mommy's pocketbook.

And all this suits you just fine I suppose, since all you care about is whether serious crimes are portrayed realistically in a genre not well suited for portraying serious crimes realistically.

But for the rest of us, we still have to wonder how any of this "mature" content actually sells books.

Kids aren't buying not because of the violence content, but because of the stigma attached to comics with being considered nerds. They're not buying when they can watch the cartoons and movies, which cost less and gives them more bang for their buck. And with the direct market being what it is, kids aren't going to buy comics because of the availability issues. And my point about crimes was that there are adult crimes involving death, rape, theft and drugs.

And further, kids are going to "Free Comic Book Day". They're going in there and getting action figures and comics. Whether they're age appropriate or not, they're getting them. If they're not reading them, it's not because of content, but a general lack of interest.

Yes they are children's characters. Why people get all pissy when that's pointed out is a mystery to me, because that doesn't mean that they can't be read by everyone, but the only way these characters honestly work is as kids characters. Raping Sue Dibney or punching the head off a minor character doesn't make them adult all of a sudden, it just makes the treatment of them dubious.

Let's clarify something about rape. I'm only aware of one actual rape and that was Sue Dibny. Why is it that people are speaking of more than one? Is there that I have missed?

[AJBopp]

Let's clarify something about rape. I'm only aware of one actual rape and that was Sue Dibny. Why is it that people are speaking of more than one? Is there that I have missed?

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Rape

[Clark_Krunk]

....and this is why we can't save the comics industry.

yeah, you definitely don't have a clue to what youre talking about..... stay trapped in the late 70's...

[Badou]

I think the way to save the Comic Industry is by making movies and animated series. I mean it works for the manga industry.

Honestly, I'd like to see current ongoing stories in comics get animated series and ect. like you see in the manga/anime industry. Since usually when they get an anime the manga sales of the series jump so much, but that is never going to happen. Current stories are rooted in just too much continuity to really be captured well in an animated series so they just continue to use the IPs in original series with just bits and pieces of older comic book stories mixed in.

[carabas]

Honestly, I'd like to see current ongoing stories in comics get animated series and ect. like you see in the manga/anime industry. Since usually when they get an anime the manga sales of the series jump so much, but that is never going to happen. Current stories are rooted in just too much continuity to really be captured well in an animated series so they just continue to use the IPs in original series with just bits and pieces of older comic book stories mixed in.

There has not ever been one era in comics where that would have been feasible.
20-odd monthly pages can't be made into a remotely faithful cartoon.

[sunofdarkchild]

There has not ever been one era in comics where that would have been feasible.
20-odd monthly pages can't be made into a remotely faithful cartoon.

Manga pulls it off with 15 page weekly chapters. Would it really be that much harder for comic books?

[Badou]

There has not ever been one era in comics where that would have been feasible.
20-odd monthly pages can't be made into a remotely faithful cartoon.

I think they could. It isn't just 20 pages but maybe 2+ years of issues they could craft into a small animated series. Bad example, since it isn't a very good book, but take the rebooted JL comic and make an animated series out of that. Obviously they will have to take certain liberties since comics don't flow as smoothly as manga and translated as well into animated series, but something sort of like that. Basically use current stories to help promote the source material. Since when the series ends, or goes on break, people can jump onto the comic to continue where the story left off. Like they are doing with TWD or Game of Thrones but with an animated series.

I mean I get that animated series based on comic characters aren't usually made to promote comics and instead are used to promote the character/IP, but I would still like to see them give it a try.