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  1. #496
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Krunk View Post
    you have all different styles for writers now while during that era comics generally had a blue print most writers followed.... now its completely different...
    No it's not. If anything it's gotten worse now the accountants and marketing people are telling companies what to do.

  2. #497
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    I'll never get the reverence some have for the naive "she doesn't know she's hot" former slave but fierce warrior who needs to be cuddled Starfire Or the idea that such a character wasn't problematic from the beginning.

    But, then, my allegiance, if any, is to the cartoon Starfire.

    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    I keep looking at this and still think 'these are children's characters?'
    To be fair, I did that sort of thing with my toys more when I was eight. I suspect that's true of most people.

  3. #498
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    I'll never get the reverence some have for the naive "she doesn't know she's hot" former slave but fierce warrior who needs to be cuddled Starfire Or the idea that such a character wasn't problematic from the beginning.
    There's a world in difference in tone and attitude from the vaguely naive way the character was treated to the out and out sex toy she ended up as. It's always female characters who end up suffering sort of degradation like this which is again about pandering to the audience.
    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    To be fair, I did that sort of thing with my toys more when I was eight. I suspect that's true of most people.

    It's possible to make children's stories accessible to a wide audience. Doctor Who's been doing it for years, and of course Harry Potter took the idea to new heights. Meanwhile at Marvel and DC it's nihilistic rape and violence.

  4. #499
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Krunk View Post
    yeah I meant the industry as a whole. Like I said Image is putting out so many cool books right now you couldn't read it all. Than Marvel and DC, I think both companies have been kicking ass since right around 2000.
    ....and this is why we can't save the comics industry.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  5. #500
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones
    Their attempts at pulling in a truly younger audience (not the teens Mat001 often lumps in with very young children) are half hearted, and I don't see DC doing anything very bold in terms of content. Vertigo is getting phased out, and there's very little innovation in the main superhero books.
    Young kids at age seven, were going to see "Robocop" and playing "Mortal Kombat". That's why cartoons and toys were made for them. Not just for teenagers. Hasbro funded "Transformers: The Movie" which had two instances of swearing and characters being killed off, then you had Warner Brothers with "Batman: Mask Of Phantasm" which had death in it. Both of which were marketed to all ages groups, including the six to nine year old market.

    Quote Originally Posted by king mob
    I keep looking at this and still think 'these are children's characters?'
    Yep. Little kids will see that along with this...




  6. #501
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    Attachment 106527

    I keep looking at this and still think 'these are children's characters?'
    No, they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Young kids at age seven, were going to see "Robocop" and playing "Mortal Kombat". That's why cartoons and toys were made for them. Not just for teenagers. Hasbro funded "Transformers: The Movie" which had two instances of swearing and characters being killed off, then you had Warner Brothers with "Batman: Mask Of Phantasm" which had death in it. Both of which were marketed to all ages groups, including the six to nine year old market.
    Which says an awful lot about parenting, but not much at all about appropriateness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Yep. Little kids will see that along with this...



    It might be worth noting that the MPAA ratings system was changed as a direct result of that movie.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  7. #502
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Bopp
    No, they're not.
    Sure they are. No more than when the Punisher debuted in the 70's, or Wolverine for that matter.

    Which says an awful lot about parenting, but not much at all about appropriateness.
    This presumes it is bad parenting. What you think is different from what I think. Every parent is entitled to raise their children how they want. After all, two hundred years ago, kids were looking up to William H. Bonny as much as they did Wyatt Earp.

    It might be worth noting that the MPAA ratings system was changed as a direct result of that movie.
    Which didn't stop parents from showing it their seven year olds, in the years since then. The ones who consider themselves good parents, but to the rest, not so much. The film industry ratings and the comic book ratings are no different from each other. It is personal responsibility of the parents to judge what is best, more than it is the industry itself. Both sides have their own responsibility.

  8. #503
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    There's a world in difference in tone and attitude from the vaguely naive way the character was treated to the out and out sex toy she ended up as.
    To be accurate, she didn't "end up" that way. She's not that way now. It's been over a year since the issue or two where she was depicted that way, and she hasn't really been depicted that way since.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  9. #504
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    The comics industry just needs to stop with these incestuous hiring practices and open their doors to more talent. When all the creators are drinking buddies, you invariably end up paying above market rates for some very mediocre and uninspired work, making it almost impossible to cut costs and keep prices competitive no matter how much staff you lay off.

  10. #505
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Sure they are. No more than when the Punisher debuted in the 70's, or Wolverine for that matter.
    There was quite a bit of difference between the debut of The Punisher and Wolverine and what they eventually became in the 90s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    This presumes it is bad parenting. What you think is different from what I think. Every parent is entitled to raise their children how they want.
    Yes, it does presume bad parenting. But certainly every parent is not entitled to raise their children how they want, nor should they be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Which didn't stop parents from showing it their seven year olds, in the years since then. The ones who consider themselves good parents, but to the rest, not so much. The film industry ratings and the comic book ratings are no different from each other. It is personal responsibility of the parents to judge what is best, more than it is the industry itself. Both sides have their own responsibility.
    Film industry ratings are quite a bit different from comic book ratings, actually. I agree that parents have a personal responsibility to judge what is best for their children. But parents need to be held responsible for the judgments they make, as well.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  11. #506
    Junior Member Tristan_MC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Film industry ratings are quite a bit different from comic book ratings, actually. I agree that parents have a personal responsibility to judge what is best for their children. But parents need to be held responsible for the judgments they make, as well.
    This all the way.

    If I may add this: times are changing. Kids are more exposed to violence/graphic violence than ever before, from real life news stories to video games. The times are always reflected in literature, such as comics. I remember reading a few curse words in comics back in the early 90s, but now it's just standard. Graphic violence is just standard. It's a scary thought.

    Side note: I remember being in Blockbuster not too long ago and a kid no more than seven was almost in tears trying to convince his mom to rent one of the Call of Duty games. I think she gave in.
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  12. #507
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    That's 17 Bendis volumes. Which amounts to maybe 20 episodes.

    'Tweaking' things pretty much flies in the face of your proposal. And some of the important things, like Gwen Stacy's death, you pretty much can't do. You cant' use Kitty. You can't use Johnny Storm.

    And anyway, why on earth would they even try to do that? Ultimate Spicer-Man comics audience: 100.000 people, at their peak. Spider-Man movie audience: millions.
    i don't think 17 vols equals only 20 episodes. superman batman public enemies was around the 60 minute mark and superman batman supergirl was was in the 70 minute mark and had stuff taken so basically 1 vol equals 2 episodes. Considering Dragon Ball Z could extended fight scenes for long periods of times among other things I think Marvel could find a way.

    as for the different audience that is only because more people watch movies then read comics. if a tv show or movie was to follow the ultimate story line i don't think that would turn viewers off. As for using gwen Staceys death that would be allowed. Naruto got away with death on toonami. As for not being able to use characters like kitty and johnny like i said before that is just stupidity on rights and such not allowing marvel to use their own characters.

  13. #508

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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    It's possible to make children's stories accessible to a wide audience. Doctor Who's been doing it for years, and of course Harry Potter took the idea to new heights. Meanwhile at Marvel and DC it's nihilistic rape and violence.
    Have to agree. From the standpoint of somebody who knew innocent versions of their victims did Joker and Dr. Light raped Batgirl and Sue or was that Moore and Meltzer raping Babs and Sue ...and the Joker and Dr. Light (I'm aware that Babs was not really raped)?
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  14. #509
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Sure they are. No more than when the Punisher debuted in the 70's, or Wolverine for that matter.



    This presumes it is bad parenting. What you think is different from what I think. Every parent is entitled to raise their children how they want. After all, two hundred years ago, kids were looking up to William H. Bonny as much as they did Wyatt Earp.
    .
    The problem is, Mat, by your logic young kids should be flocking to comics because the content is right up their alley. And they simply aren't. Mortal Kombat: popular. Indiana Jones: popular. Modern american superhero comics: not so much. Shouldn't kids be desperate to get their hands on all this "mature" content?

    Oh, wait, that's right. Parents won't buy the books because of that "mature" content (yeah, yeah blah blah parents don't care what their kids read and kids are gonna encounter violence somewhere; but c'mon man, we've already established that your answer to this is that kids get the content through avenues other than their parents buying it for them, which is fine except that no one in this thread gives a flying frack how kids get to read violent material because the discussion is about whether that violent material sells. Again, kids aren't independently wealthy.) and this of course leads to the few kids who are interested in getting into comics turning to The Pirate Bay instead of mommy's pocketbook.

    And all this suits you just fine I suppose, since all you care about is whether serious crimes are portrayed realistically in a genre not well suited for portraying serious crimes realistically.

    But for the rest of us, we still have to wonder how any of this "mature" content actually sells books.
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 01-01-2013 at 02:17 AM.

  15. #510
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    Comics are pretty ill-suited for showcasing graphic violence, without the benefit of any sort of motion or sound the scenes need to be done way over the top to have the same kind of impact you'd get from a similar scene a movie or video game, and at that point it just stops being genuinely shocking and starts looking ridiculous. If you flip through a stack of 90s comics where this was tried, they look much more inane than they do horrifying. The same is basically true for blatant sexualization. And advances in technology in the intervening years have made such material in other media much more believable and realistic, but the corresponding effect on comics has been marginal to non-existent. Kids might have an appetite for such things, but there's no way in hell they'll get any satisfaction in this regard from reading a comic, not with the alternatives available these days.

    Content in comics should always be geared toward the one advantage it does have over other forms of entertainment - the ability to pack a limitless level of detail into each page that the reader can take in at his or her own pace. Everyone complains about CGI-driven movies as being so heavy on special effects that the viewer just sees it all as background noise in the end, but comics are actually quite uniquely suited to deliver this kind of experience. You can fit hundreds of characters on each page, and every minute detail is going to be noticed by someone out there, as opposed to a movie where it all just zips by in an instant and your brain never gets the chance to parse it all. Now this doesn't mean that every single comic should be some massive crossover event, but it does mean that creators should take every opportunity possible to do a bit of world building. And frankly, the idea of a vibrant and dynamic world, far more than the plot lines of the stories themselves, is what draws readers in and keeps them coming back for more. The drawback of all of this of course is that it requires far more effort on the part of the writers and artists to put out issues, but on the flip side it also means a drastic increase in the level of content and a corresponding rise in the value that customers perceive.

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