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  1. #466
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsagiTsukino View Post
    That pretty much what I was saying. What I meant by the I'm only 19 is that I know more about the golden age because I read the golden age since there have the collection books.
    "I remember the time when comics had all genres in them during the golden age and I'm only 19" means that you personally have memories from the fourties and that you're 19 years old. Which is of course impossible.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  2. #467
    "Dark Hero" The Animal Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    What works for the manga industry is that manga is cheap and easily accessible.
    where are you where manga's cheap and easy to find? it's hard not to find a manga under $9(sometimes they go over that mark by a bit)after borders closed down i couldn't find a book store let alone any place that sold manga's
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  3. #468
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Questions:
    *Why has the talent recruitment been so mediocre in mainstream comics after the early 90s? (Sure, we get a star now and then, but it's clearly not the same).
    Because Marvel and DC aren't looking outside of comics for potential writers. Sure, you have the odd one or two Kevin Smith types, but that doesn't really count. It's getting a flood of ideas from people who aren't just fans but have read more than a lifetimes worth of X Men, then again what would attract these people would be the sort of creative ownership deals that Marvel and DC are not going to give out, and in fact their terms are getting worse so you get titles written by fans who are just not going to bring anything new or original, nor will they especially rock the boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    *Why the focus on the white, male, superhero genre market? Why can't DC and Marvel go the Japanese and European way?
    Because they're so linked now to the direct market that they won't break what they know will make them money. They know their market and they feed the beast even though the superhero market is aging and declining, not to mention the readership is against digital which would help increase the readership.

  4. #469
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Animal Man View Post
    where are you where manga's cheap and easy to find? it's hard not to find a manga under $9(sometimes they go over that mark by a bit)after borders closed down i couldn't find a book store let alone any place that sold manga's
    They weren't talking about what manga does in America.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  5. #470
    Senior Member Addams's Avatar
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    No wonder why manga books are doing so well worldwide.

    Pretty much all genres and subjects are covered, there is books for all type of audience, all ages. There is a manga for everybody. Little boys and girls, teens, adult men and women and even some for your grandma.

    Comic books just for young male ? They would laugh at your face. Yeah, big news, girls and women like to read stories and you know what ? They have money too.

  6. #471
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    Fine, Mat. You're right.

    Content doesn't matter. Entertainment isn't under constant scrutiny from influential media outlets (oh, wait), Hollywood isn't constantly putting pressure on it's creators to make sure films get a PG-13 rating so that they can make more money (oh, wait), and if Nickelodeon decided to have their saturday morning cartoons depict graphic acts of rape and murder no one would bat an eye, especially not parents.
    Hollywood is always under pressure, but you know what, that matters only a little bit in the grand scheme of things. Especially when R rated and Uncut versions of said films are released. Even with PG-13, the violence level is still pretty high. That was one of the main concerns with "The Dark Knight" before it came out, as rumors suggested it might be rated R. "Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker" went from being PG-13, to PG with a re-edit and that lasted all of two years. Then a couple of years later, we had another animated Batman film that was equally harsh, but no one batted an eye. "Batman Returns" was deemed too dark. But then we have Nolan's films and no one complains. Influential media blasts movies, but then glamorizes that school shooting. "Mortal Kombat" drummed up controversy and twenty years later, no one cares anymore as the ratings are in place and kids are still playing it.

    I have no idea why you're bringing up Alan Moore and Vertigo. I've never once even come close to advocating censorship or saying that a Vertigo book should have it's content changed to focus on a younger audience. And yes, I'm aware that kids (myself included) probably read Alan Moore stories before the "recommended age" (whatever that is). That matters so little to anything I've said that I really can't fathom why you would quote me and then bring any of that up in response.
    My point is that as long as the content exists period, there will always be kids that want it. Saying toning down the books will help, no it won't because it didn't change nothing in the past and it won't change it now.

    Clearly discussing the potential for superheroes in younger demographics is pointless, because the fact that your parents let you watch the Terminator before you hit puberty trumps all.
    Not just me, but for many other kids as well.

    It's funny that you, of all people, bring up EC. Yes, kids ate up all those classic horror books. And it stirred up a massive shitstorm, bankrupted EC, angered legions of parents and did great damage to the industry.
    And twenty years later, it didn't matter because the CCA was toned down quite a bit. Then became less and less effective because the industry had to compete with the rest of the world. Why worry about comics, when you can just play the violent video game that your parents just bought without looking at it. Or your friend who owns it.

    Mat001's takeaway from that: Parents don't care what their kids read and it doesn't matter if superhero comics are violent. Jesus Christ, man.
    Superheroes are, by their very nature, violent. A parent could easily object to the kind of stuff that was published thirty years ago. We even assume that parents look at comics, because why would they? Did your parents look at your comics, before buying them? You think that just because they don't buy the comic, that they won't be exposed to the violence elsewhere? Case in point, one of my friend's growing up wasn't allowed to watch R rated films at home, when he was under the age of thirteen. Meanwhile at my home, he was watching "Robocop" and "Robocop 2". Parental censorship only extends so far. If the kid wants to see it bad enough, they'll find a way.

  7. #472
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    My point is that as long as the content exists period, there will always be kids that want it. Saying toning down the books will help, no it won't because it didn't change nothing in the past and it won't change it now.
    I haven't suggested toning down the content. I have wondered at the business strategy of putting brightly colored (and in some cases childish) characters with massive appeal to younger demographics in violent adult situations that are clearly geared towards a teen audience who don't find these characters nearly as appealing, Batman aside.

    I've also admitted that going Johnny DC with the whole line would probably kill my interest. But it's just a discussion. I don't have an agenda here.


    Not just me, but for many other kids as well.
    Yeah, me too. Again, it isn't relevant.


    And twenty years later, it didn't matter because the CCA was toned down quite a bit.
    I disagree. The CCA changed the landscape drastically.

    Superheroes are, by their very nature, violent. A parent could easily object to the kind of stuff that was published thirty years ago.
    Yes, they could.

    We even assume that parents look at comics, because why would they? Did your parents look at your comics, before buying them?
    Yes, they did. Many parents actually pay attention to what their kids are reading / watching. You might not think they do, but that's your own very skewed worldview, and isn't really representative of everyone.

    You think that just because they don't buy the comic, that they won't be exposed to the violence elsewhere?
    Of course they'll be exposed to violence elsewhere. I never said one single thing to indicate that I think kids shouldn't be exposed to violence, or that comics should be censored. This is what makes discussions with you so difficult; I really don't understand where you're getting these ideas. For the last time, I am not against violence in comics.

    We're having a hypothetical discussion about how comics can increase sales, and literally all I've done is suggest that men in brightly colored outfits that wear their underwear on the outside of their pants might be taken more seriously by a younger crowd.

    Case in point, one of my friend's growing up wasn't allowed to watch R rated films at home, when he was under the age of thirteen. Meanwhile at my home, he was watching "Robocop" and "Robocop 2". Parental censorship only extends so far. If the kid wants to see it bad enough, they'll find a way.
    Sure. And to actually turn this into something relevant to the discussion; how much money do you think the makers of Robocop made off of all the kids that had to watch the film at someone else's house, instead of their parents buying them a movie ticket or a VHS copy directly?
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 12-29-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  8. #473
    Junior Member Tristan_MC's Avatar
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    Someone earlier stated about the comics at the newsstand. My first comic was bought from a gas station right up the road (early 90s). So, definitely selling comics at various outlets and maybe less "capes." In my opinion, when people think of comics, they still think of capes and superheroes. More unique properties (non-superhero) need exposure in both comics and other mediums...which is technically happening (Walking Dead), so I don't know.
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  9. #474
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones
    I haven't suggested toning down the content. I have wondered at the business strategy of putting brightly colored (and in some cases childish) characters with massive appeal to younger demographics in violent adult situations that are clearly geared towards a teen audience who don't find these characters nearly as appealing, Batman aside.
    Because there are crimes in the world that should not be overlooked, despite the overall design of the characters. Superman should chase after the Parasite, who leaves a subway train full of skeletons, the result of being drained dry, as much as he should be playing Mxy's name game. As much as people disliked "Identity Crisis", it at least drove home the cost of being a superhero, without it just being death. I'm not saying every issue should be there, but it doesn't hurt to have it be a re-occurring element.

    I disagree. The CCA changed the landscape drastically.
    For about twenty years. Then it changed back. In fact, it helped perpetuate the notion that comics are only for kids. Kinda why DC made a big marketing campaign about it in the 80's.

    Yes, they did. Many parents actually pay attention to what their kids are reading / watching. You might not think they do, but that's your own very skewed worldview, and isn't really representative of everyone.
    Many, but not all. Hence kids are reading "The Hunger Games", which had kids killing kids.

    We're having a hypothetical discussion about how comics can increase sales, and literally all I've done is suggest that men in brightly colored outfits that wear their underwear on the outside of their pants might be taken more seriously by a younger crowd.
    And to do that, they shouldn't shy away from serious crimes.

    Sure. And to actually turn this into something relevant to the discussion; how much money do you think the makers of Robocop made off of all the kids that had to watch the film at someone else's house, instead of their parents buying them a movie ticket or a VHS copy directly?
    Not as much, but it was enough that Orion Pictures licensed the rights to Kenner and to an animation studio. Enough that by the third film, it was watered down to PG-13 on purpose.

  10. #475

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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    Sure, you have the odd one or two Kevin Smith types, but that doesn't really count.
    Oddly enough, I was actually thinking of Smith, Meltzer and Whedom when I said "Sure, we get a star now and then, but it's clearly not the same".
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  11. #476

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    Quote Originally Posted by UsagiTsukino View Post
    That pretty much what I was saying. What I meant by the I'm only 19 is that I know more about the golden age because I read the golden age since there have the collection books.
    Well, that would be: "I know there was a time when comics used to include all genres: the golden age". I think it's interesting that you read golden age comics. I find them too tedious. And expert once told me that it's a matter of training. I'm used to reading postmodern comics, so it's baby steps when I read modern ones (golden and silver ages).
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  12. #477
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Im sorry if this has been said already, but years ago I said the thing Marvel could do was take a page from the Japanese when it came to their cartoons. I thought of this back in 2007 and said Marvel should do Ultimate Cartoons based exactly on their Ultimate books just like how anime is based exactly like the manga most of the time. Marvel could start with Ultimate Spider-Man and just follow the story of the comics. The graphic novels were numbered just like manga so people could easily know which one to pick up. Then Marvel could make the Ultimate X-Men cartoon, FF, and for the Ultimates a mini series or direct to dvd OVA type thing before putting it on TV. The reason I feel this could have helped the comic book industry greatly is because Marvel would have had 3 weekly cartoons series running at once all taking place in the same universe. That idea alone would catch peoples attention and with the Ultimate Universe not being too old starting to read the comics wouldn't seem so scary. Back in 2007 the current volume of Ultimate Spider-Man was vol 17 so for people watching the cartoon who would be interested in the comics would see that and maybe pick up vol 1. Then there is the fact people reading to find out what happens quicker then having the wait for the episode to air. The Ultimate universe titles were also self contained to a degree so you could pick and choose what to read and watch. Also considering that no other comic book cartoon, to my knowledge at least, was based exactly on the comic and the stories during that golden age of the Ultimate universe being so good at the time I think the idea of reading something and then seeing that same story animated with little to no changes would catch on to some degree. Whether it be from no readers, comic fans, or older fans who grew up only reading the 616 stories and are interested in seeing the different take the Ultimate universe did.

    When I heard Marvel was doing an Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon I was hoping maybe this idea was being put into place but boy was I wrong. I have seen 3 episodes and while some stuff is cool, overall I just can't get into that cartoon. Especially the way Spider-Man is portrayed.

  13. #478
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddx77 View Post
    Im sorry if this has been said already, but years ago I said the thing Marvel could do was take a page from the Japanese when it came to their cartoons. I thought of this back in 2007 and said Marvel should do Ultimate Cartoons based exactly on their Ultimate books just like how anime is based exactly like the manga most of the time.
    That's almost never the case. Manga-based anime tends to start out more or less exactly like the source material, but because anime comes out faster than the manga, eventually the'll have to completely abandon the manga storyline and go off into a different direction.

    Marvel could start with Ultimate Spider-Man and just follow the story of the comics.
    The Ultimate Spider-Man comic doesn't really work in any way at all as a cartoon. It's way too talky and dark much of the time. And regularily featrures characters they currently don't have the rights to.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  14. #479
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    That's almost never the case. Manga-based anime tends to start out more or less exactly like the source material, but because anime comes out faster than the manga, eventually the'll have to completely abandon the manga storyline and go off into a different direction.

    The Ultimate Spider-Man comic doesn't really work in any way at all as a cartoon. It's way too talky and dark much of the time. And regularily featrures characters they currently don't have the rights to.
    With some like Love Hina, Negima, DNAngel, and the original Fullmetal Alchemist, but with Dragon Ball, One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, and Case Closed they just go into filler when needed. Marvel could have just done into filler when needed plus unlike anime, US shows take season breaks so that would allow more time for the comics to get ahead. Like I said when I thought of this back in 2007 Ultimate Spider-Man had 17 volumes so Marvel could could make that last.

    I think that wouldn't be a problem because Marvel could have just tweaked some little things. Remember when Naruto aired on toonami back in 2005 it got away with a lot so I think Marvel could have got away with a lot of stuff too. As for character right I wasn't even thinking about that but thats just stupid to begin with that Marvel doesn't have the rights to use characters in cartoons that they created.

  15. #480
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    I haven't suggested toning down the content. I have wondered at the business strategy of putting brightly colored (and in some cases childish) characters with massive appeal to younger demographics in violent adult situations that are clearly geared towards a teen audience who don't find these characters nearly as appealing, Batman aside.
    You've hit one of the elephants in the room which is that these are children's characters, and were designed to be children's characters because that's the only way these characters really work. Now you can make them open for all ages and expand the readership that way, but the problem is not making the stories childish and also get kids to read comics which is where making them accessible on tablets and mobiles comes into play. That would involve Marvel and DC expanding their business plan and thinking a decade ahead rather than looking around for whatever IP they've got lying around they can exploit to a decreasing market.

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