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  1. #421
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    They didn't have much choice. They were facing concerns from Wertham and parents who were convinced comics were rotting kids brains. National and Timely didn't gang up on EC. They were covering their own asses because of "Seduction Of The Innocent".
    They were and they also knew they could take out a major competitor so the Comics Code was devised and worded to do just that. National especially was instrumental in making sure EC were no longer a threat.

  2. #422
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Then they need to cut costs by purging the current talent and hiring new cheaper talent and they need to go completely digital if they have to. Anyone who pays $2.99 for a digital comic is wasting money and to be honest, paying that much for a print copy is stupid too even though I do it. But I buy a fraction of the comics I once did. The cost is just way too high. 2.99 is not acceptable. That's the price of a dying product.
    I can download a song from iTunes for 50p. An album costs about a fiver and a film about the same. A comic costs a few quid to download and doesn't feel like you're getting any sort of value at all, so yes, setting the price high for digital downloads is insane when it's one of the things which can expand a collapsing readership. Then again you need the product that people want to buy, so hiring new cheaper talent is pointless if they're just going to turn out more of the same which is exactly what nearly killed Marvel off in the 90's.

    Marvel and DC need to look further afield than just hiring ex-editors or look to fans to fill in, they need to bring in new blood who have read more than a few issues of X Men and also pitch superhero comics at all ages rather than teenagers to 40 somethings because they're alienating a load of potential readers.

    Or they could just do rubbish like the New 52 and pretend everything's ok.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Which would be remarkably stupid since 90% of their customers don't buy digital. It's the price dictated by the production cost. It's called "inflation". It's not 1970 anymore.
    That is true, it also absolutely does not change fact, that comics are expensive bordering on prohibitively expensive. Take into account events, cross-overs and cross promotion material and unless you do have steady good income, you will not be able to follow that much.
    How much costs paperback book? 8-12 dollars? and that is complete story, for the same price you will get, if you are very lucky, half of the story in monthly format. It is not the same format, but I do think it serves to illustrate the point.
    What I think, that you are missing, is that something can be expensive and at the same time have very little profit in it, but those ventures do not tend to last that long.

  4. #424
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    I can download a song from iTunes for 50p. An album costs about a fiver and a film about the same. A comic costs a few quid to download and doesn't feel like you're getting any sort of value at all, so yes, setting the price high for digital downloads is insane when it's one of the things which can expand a collapsing readership.
    Does anyone know how much control DC has over their pricing? I would be very very surprised if it wasn't in writing somewhere that because of their contracts with Diamond they aren't allowed to discount digital comics until X amount of time.

  5. #425
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Which would be remarkably stupid since 90% of their customers don't buy digital.
    Don't pitch superhero comics to the fans because they'll buy it anyhow, not to mention keep it so you still need hard copies of comics but the digital market is the future not to mention it's a massive untapped market so you need to draw this market in so create comics which are accessible and will attract kids who want to read them on their tablets or phones. Superhero comics can't afford to cut out a huge potential because most of the existing readership do things one way.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorb5 View Post
    That is true, it also absolutely does not change fact, that comics are expensive bordering on prohibitively expensive. Take into account events, cross-overs and cross promotion material and unless you do have steady good income, you will not be able to follow that much.
    How much costs paperback book? 8-12 dollars? and that is complete story, for the same price you will get, if you are very lucky, half of the story in monthly format. It is not the same format, but I do think it serves to illustrate the point.
    What I think, that you are missing, is that something can be expensive and at the same time have very little profit in it, but those ventures do not tend to last that long.
    I'm not missing anything. I'm just pointing out that no matter how much people complain about it, publishers cannot afford to charge less for a product than they spend to produce and distribute it, and they still have to make some kind of profit or it isn't worth doing at all.

  7. #427
    Elder Member king mob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Does anyone know how much control DC has over their pricing? I would be very very surprised if it wasn't in writing somewhere that because of their contracts with Diamond they aren't allowed to discount digital comics until X amount of time.
    DC charges what it can think it can get away with.

  8. #428
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    DC charges what it can think it can get away with.
    The information I saw was that ITunes and Comixology take a % of the sale price (which is roughly 1/3 each), not a flat cost. Which is to say that it is the publisher who decides what they need to charge to cover their costs and make a profit, because the other entities apparently take whatever their % of the price ends up being. So if they charged $.99, then DC gets about $.33 of that. If they charge $2.99, then DC gets about $.99 of that. So it comes down to whether DC can cover their costs at $.33 or $.99 or something in between.

    I think from the fact that everything on ITunes has that $.99, $1.99, $2.99 etc. pricing that there are probably some imposed structure on the pricing by ITunes/Comixology, of course. DC probably couldn't charge $1.76, for example.

    This is not contradicting what you are saying, just elaborating.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  9. #429
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    Last year Dark Horse announced they would be releasing their books for a dollar cheaper digitally day and date than their paper books. (Basically 1.99 for their digital copies the same day as their physical copies hit the shelf for 2.99) This started a hail of protest from retailers along with a number of calls for boycotts. Here is a sample of the letter that Larry's Comics sent to fellow retailers on the subject.

    My problem with their plans is that their day & date comics are going to go for $1.99 instead of being the same price as print like the other publishers. They are competing directly with shops & undercutting price.

    ...

    Dark Horse's shelf space loss is another small press Indy publisher's gain.
    More recently when Mark Waid announced his plans to sell off his personal comic book collection to finance his digital venture to produce free/low cost digital comic books. His idea was also meet with protests by retailers expressing their dismay at the idea and threatening to boycott his product even from the big two.

    So here's my deal. I haven't promoted anything by Mark in some time due to his vociferousness against print comics. Now I will actively be letting customers know that his work isn't welcome in my stores. Movie stars, rock stars, and comic creators only have a soapbox because of their successes. I won't help contribute to any success that will be turned against me. And no, I see no difference between a creator owned Image book or a relaunch of a major character from Marvel or DC. I have 1000 other creators who I can support so even tanking a big character book won't impact my bottom line significantly.
    Source

    So most of the blame for the same price digital would fall to publishers caving to retailers under the fear of boycott. Digital has been estimated to be around 10% of the book market so losing physical retailers could be a substantial fear when added to the fear that some retailers would surely go under if they lost new physical books from either DC or Marvel thereby shrinking the market for their product even more. Digital just isn't yet at a place where it's strong enough to support a big publishing house so it's necessary to continue making the retailers happy. If the digital market can continue and perhaps become half of the physical direct market then Comic Book Publishers could possibly have a leg to stand on in demanding a lower cost for digital books but that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

    Also because the Big Two outsource the digitalization of their books through Comixology they see a smaller profit than a company that handles the digitalization themselves like Dark Horse and Archie.
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  10. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Evidence suggests as long as trees don't go extinct.
    Well, with all the torrents, .cbr files and legit stuff online about every single issue must be available by now, so there has to be some impact on paper, don't you think?
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
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  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadenewt View Post
    So most of the blame for the same price digital would fall to publishers caving to retailers under the fear of boycott.
    That's a faintly ridiculous notion. Comicbook shop retailers can't realistically boycott Marvel and/or DC without their shops going belly-up.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Well, with all the torrents, .cbr files and legit stuff online about every single issue must be available by now, so there has to be some impact on paper, don't you think?
    There's an impact. Astérix is still selling millions of copies in France though. Books (comics, prose, textbooks, non-fiction...) are not going to go away. Ever.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  13. #433
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king mob View Post
    DC charges what it can think it can get away with.
    You may be right, but honestly it's incredibly difficult for me to believe that DC and only DC decides how much they charge for digital. Especially given how much they talk about attracting new readers.

    Since Diamond for all intents and purposes has monopolized physical comics distribution in the US, they would have to be either really really nice or really really stupid to not strongarm DC/Marvel into keeping their prices up to avoid losing sales to digital.

    Guess I'm saying that if I were Diamond I would be:
    A. Kicking myself for not getting into digital when it would be worth it (before comixology established themselves)
    B. Using any means at my disposal to reduce the advantages digital has over print.

  14. #434
    Tai'shar Manetheren Jadenewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    That's a faintly ridiculous notion. Comicbook shop retailers can't realistically boycott Marvel and/or DC without their shops going belly-up.
    There were comic shops before the Direct Market that dealt solely in Back Issues and memorabilia. And if the retailer goes 'belly up' it shrinks the direct market either way. Sure some of it may be bluster but can either of the Big Two really afford to lose shops even for a few months?
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  15. #435
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    It's absolutely the fault of the industry if they fail to adapt to the challenges of the marketplace. I think maybe you should give that paragraph I wrote a re-read, unless your claim really is that kids should have their own independent income which they can spend as they wish, and if a business fails to sell books to children because of uptight parents then there's nothing the business could have done and it isn't their fault.

    Otherwise, you need to realize that any real business has to take into account real factors like the parents of the children they're selling their product to having a major factor in determining what's purchased and what isn't.

    Seriously, man. It doesn't matter whose fault something is in business. Either you're selling something or you aren't.
    The businesses always take these things into account, but even then, it is not always a given that parents look through comic books and cartoons the same way that they might with films and television series. Most parents aren't going to assume that "Justice League: The New Frontier" is not age appropriate compared to "Justice League Unlimited". They're going to think it's the same thing that was shown on Cartoon Network and now on the CW network. Likewise, not every parent is going to open up the comic and read it first, if their kid is old enough to read.

    I'm very aware of the content of the Ghostbusters cartoons, thanks. None of that is really relevant.
    It is since you brought it up. Those toys were banned because it promoted Satanism which is not the fault of the film's producers, the showrunners, nor the toy manufacturers. That is the fault of an uptight parent who took their religion way too seriously. Even with something that was very family friendly, it came under fire. Same with Harry Potter.

    So what? How successful was that "Robocop" cartoon anyway?
    The point is that kids were being marketed to by Hollywood and the comics industry. And they did so, because they knew that kids watched the films which were R rated and violent as hell. So they knew that they would watch cartoons, buy the toys to play with, play the video games and read the comics. "Robocop", "Aliens", "Predator", "Commando", "Rambo", "Terminator 2" and "Mortal Kombat". Not exactly child friendly, but they sure as hell were marketed to kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000
    You still have to win over parents. I will say this most of the damage wasn't done by comics but outside factors. Don't think the shooting at that school, Trayvon Martin's death, Oklahoma City bombing, 911 and other events aren't influencing parents.

    You have parents who live in areas where some of the stuff you see in comics happens in real life. You think those parents are going to buy a comic that features the same thing? Most parents will just avoid that stuff.
    Most parents don't sit down and read comics. The mainstream DC and Marvel comics these days don't focus on the smaller stories, since they're written for trade. Gone are the stories like "Crisis At Hand", "There's Something About A Gun", "Seduction Of The Gun", "Death Of Innocents" and Peter David's AIDS and abortion issues. Today it's "Superman And The Men Of Steel", "Court Of Owls", "Brand New Day" and "World War Hulk".


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Then they need to cut costs by purging the current talent and hiring new cheaper talent and they need to go completely digital if they have to. Anyone who pays $2.99 for a digital comic is wasting money and to be honest, paying that much for a print copy is stupid too even though I do it. But I buy a fraction of the comics I once did. The cost is just way too high. 2.99 is not acceptable. That's the price of a dying product.
    These people need to pay the bills. The economy is in the toilet and the cost of living is skyrocketing thanks to the bad economy, inflation and the recent drought. They need to pay for medical expenses, utilities, putting their kids through school, having a roof over their head and food on the table. You think you can keep your family going on minimum wage?

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