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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Not really. This has been addressed extensively earlier in the thread.


    The actual content of the comics has nothing to do with why they are no longer sold in those places. They aren't sold on newsstands because the newsstands don't want them.
    I always thought there were theft issues. Ask 7-11?

  2. #302
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Theft had very little impact on the reason why and more to do with cost. It might in a grocery store, or a convenience store, but not in a retail store or a book store where alarms and security guards are present. Besides, a kid would rather steal a video game or a toy, even clothes, than a comic.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bison4Life View Post
    I always thought there were theft issues. Ask 7-11?
    No. Seriously, this has been discussed in depth already. Newsstands and convenience stores couldn't make as much money stocking comics as they could giving over the space to more expensive magazines, and the publishers could no longer afford to allow them to cover strip and return unsolds, so it just wasn't worth their time or their money to stock them anymore. That hasn't changed.

  4. #304
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    I would buy that except for the success of adult level books such as "The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo" and "50 Shades Of Grey", as well as all ages books like Harry Potter, "The Hunger Games" and even crap like "Twilight". Those aren't exactly instant gratification, at least as I interpret it. True, comics do offer a lot of time investment since it takes a while to get the next issue. But even with declining ratings, television still manages to hold it's audience with captivating programming, in spite of the long wait between seasons. Or even between batches of episodes.

    I know that in the 90's, when comics were still on newsstands, I didn't see a whole lot of movement on titles. Every time I'd go to Wal-Mart, Target, Shopko, Hastings, On-Cue and Hy-Vee, I wouldn't see too many people looking at the comics on display. A few kids in their early teens, on occasion, but that's about it. The only time there was movement was when "The Death Of Superman" happened. I had trouble finding Superman titles from October of 92 to April of 93. But beyond that, people just didn't show interest. And this was back when comics were just under two dollars per issue. There may have been three, or four copies of a title, but I didn't know how many copies had been ordered and how many had been sold. They were obviously doing business for a time, but it's not like when you're in a comic book store.

    That's why I believe it has to do with a general lack of interest, more than content. Cause let's face it, there were multi-part stories in the 70's and 80's, but that didn't stop new readers.
    well, I meant "instant gratification" in the sense of the logistics, not the story/contents of the comic. Even if someone wanted to read a Batman comic, they'd have to go out and find an LCS or hope their local B&N (if they have one) has some. Then they gotta try to figure out what's good, what's worth reading, etc etc. w/o any real previews. They'd have to read reviews or post on forums, etc. But if they live in like some small town in the middle of no where? What then?

    That's why I said digital would address these "problems" - it'd make comics a lot easier for new readers to get (once tablets become more and more common). Everything is now so fast paced, a lot of ppl won't want to go through the "hassle" of even getting in to the comic medium. Digital would be fairly hassle-free.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  5. #305
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    I'm under no obligation to buy books I have no interest in. As anyone who'd actually been paying attention wouldn't need to have spelled out to them, I was talking about changes in how they sell comics, not changes to what kind of stories are in them.
    Perhaps, but the concept of you promoting change is still wildly ironic.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    And they have been making movies and animated series for a very long time now, with little to no effect on comics sales.
    Because kids can't find the books to read them. What good is Young Justice if the comics is nowhere to be found? Not even in the public libraries.


    TW and Disney deciding to no longer sink money into their failing publishing divisions and just do movies and tv series and cartoon and games instead.

    It'd be interesting to see what takes their place.
    Disney will just go a different route. You will see the Marvel guys but in different formats especially when Disney gets Star Wars from Dark Horse.

    Or they will do what Milestone is suppose to be doing license someone else to do the books just like Dreamworks is doing with their movie guys with a company that bypasses comic book stores and just sales graphic novels everywhere else.

    I think to save the comics' industry, the comics need to target younger readers.
    They don't want to do that because those kid don't have "money" and will demand things that the big two either don't want or are struggling on.

    Example kids don't care that Static is black-they just like him-unlike adults that threatens to boycott any book he appears in.

    Maybe that's why young readers don't have interest in comics because the cartoons and movies are doing a better job with who appears and does what. Unlike comics where it's a battle.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because kids can't find the books to read them. What good is Young Justice if the comics is nowhere to be found? Not even in the public libraries.
    Well duh. I said that. Several times in just this thread alone.
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    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Even assuming McDuffie actually said that, he was wrong.

    Drugsstores and newsstands rejected comics because they were too cheap to bother with.
    He did, and keep in mind that the guy had an imprint and then managed to turn one of his characters into an animated series. His comments showed a great sight of the pig picture. That doesn't make his points right, but at least deserving of some insightful review.

    Let's put him aside for a minute. To elaborate an hypothesis. Here's a sketch of the theoretical framework (give or take, corrections welcomed):

    Golden age:
    - Best selling era
    - barely shared continuity
    - no events or crossovers
    - mostly stand alone stories on each issue
    - lots of anthology books with over 10 stories each
    - few permanent changes to the status quo, no major deaths
    - Almost no shock value
    - market: kids and young adults
    - Sold in newstands (and drugstores?).

    Silver age:
    - Second best selling era
    - shared continuity
    - some crossovers, no events (the closest to that would be Zatanna's search and the Outsider)
    - mostly stand alone stories on each issue with some two parters.
    - mostly books with one main story and a back feature.
    - few permanent changes to the status quo (some deaths like DP and Alfred)
    - almost no shock value
    - market: kids
    - Sold in newstands and drugstores.

    Bronze age:
    - Implosion
    - shared continuity, starting to convoluted
    - a lot of crossovers, lots of multiple Earths, some events, specially toward the end.
    - mostly one or two parters.
    - mostly books with one main story and a back feature.
    - some permanent changes to the status quo
    - shok value introduced
    - market: teenagers
    - Sold in newstands, drugstores and some LCS

    85-95:
    - Some recovery, still decreasing
    - Shared continuity, fixed with some inconsistencies
    - a lot of crossovers, some events, some of crossover events.
    - mostly two parters, some stand alones and some multiple parters.
    - mostly books with one main story.
    - various permanent changes to the status quo
    - more shock value, but handled by a new level of talent
    - market: teenagers and young adults.
    - Sold in LCS

    Now:
    - Lowest selling era ever
    - Shared continuity, fixed with some inconsistencies
    - a lot of crossovers, some events, some of crossover events.
    - mostly multiple parters.
    - mostly books with one main story.
    - constant permanent changes to the status quo
    - more shock value than ever, handled by less talent than the 80s
    - market: young adults.
    - Sold in LCS, libraries (trades) and online sites

    Hypothesis:
    1. Stand alone stories and simple continuity attract more readers.(based on history)
    2. Long stories sell well as trades when written by talented writers.(my impression of situations like Sandman, Watchmen, New Frontier, Id. Crisis)
    3. Kids are a better market. (based on history)
    4. Kids like stand alone stories better (based on a possible correlation in the silver age situation vs. 85-now)
    5. Kids buy more in drugstores and newsstands (based on a possible correlation in the silver age situation vs. 85-now)
    6. The main lines of DC and Marvel rely heavily on the fanboy market (brand loyalists, traditionalits and continuity nuts).

    Keep in mind that hypothesis means that it's my bet but I'm not sure. And that they are useful in that, even if they prove to be false, the information is handy.

    Hey anybody doing a thesis on marketing, creative writing or English?
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 12-22-2012 at 06:05 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  9. #309
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    only thing i'd change is the 85-95 (or early Modern Age) section - market: kids, teens, and young adults. It seemed, to me at least, that entire era had comics pretty well aimed at all age demographics fairly evenly.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    only thing i'd change is the 85-95 (or early Modern Age) section - market: kids, teens, and young adults. It seemed, to me at least, that entire era had comics pretty well aimed at all age demographics fairly evenly.
    I'd say that the kids line started late that era, about the same time they starte Vertigo. However, if we focus on the DCU, it wasn't really for kids, not as adult oriented as Vertigo, but still, not your cartoon network content.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  11. #311
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    I'd say that the kids line started late that era, about the same time they starte Vertigo. However, if we focus on the DCU, it wasn't really for kids, not as adult oriented as Vertigo, but still, not your cartoon network content.
    oh, was that list for DC only? In that case, then yeah I dunno.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  12. #312
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Well duh. I said that. Several times in just this thread alone.
    Perhaps its fair to say that this problem isn't going to be solved in a discussion group thread simply because of the nature and structure of discussion groups...
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  13. #313
    Lord of Dorks Mahzian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Please, just read the rest of the thread. The reasons why comics vanished from newsagents have been explained at length by various people several times over the last 20 pages, and still we're getting the same comments.
    I'll admit that I haven't read the last 20 pages of the thread so naughty boo boo on me for that (I read the first and last few pages), but seriously you are getting up people about posting similar comments? Multiple threads on this board are littered with you complaining about the same things over and over again, you've got to see the irony there?

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Hypothesis:
    1. Stand alone stories and simple continuity attract more readers.(based on history)
    2. Long stories sell well as trades when written by talented writers.(my impression of situations like Sandman, Watchmen, New Frontier, Id. Crisis)
    3. Kids are a better market. (based on history)
    4. Kids like stand alone stories better (based on a possible correlation in the silver age situation vs. 85-now)
    5. Kids buy more in drugstores and newsstands (based on a possible correlation in the silver age situation vs. 85-now)
    6. The main lines of DC and Marvel rely heavily on the fanboy market (brand loyalists, traditionalits and continuity nuts).

    Keep in mind that hypothesis means that it's my bet but I'm not sure. And that they are useful in that, even if they prove to be false, the information is handy.

    Hey anybody doing a thesis on marketing, creative writing or English?
    I don't think this is a very good hypothesis. A great deal of it is opinion (while I probably agree with the assessment who is to really say that the "talent" in the 1980's are superior across the board to those working in the industry today. Also, other forms of entertainment aren't taken into account. In the golden age most people didn't have TV and most movies weren't in color, in 1980 you could buy an issue of the Flash for a bit less than two games of Pac Man and that issue of the Flash offered more entertainment value than other things of the time. Things like the story length and continuity preferences you assume as being shared by more folks is biased on circumstantial evidence. While I wouldn't mind seeing more books in grocery stores and what not they don't have the shelf space that comics as a field really deserve, so I hope there will always be shops. Anyway, I don't mean to be rude but it just seems to me that you've taken a handful of more or less unrelated facts, ignored a number of relevant factors and came up with a theory which reinforces your personal preferences (though I'm sure some others share them).
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  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prisoner 6655321 View Post
    I don't think this is a very good hypothesis. A great deal of it is opinion
    That's the problem, you're taking "hypothesis" as "principle". It doesn't really matter if the hypothesis proves to be false, the important thing is that after using them for an investigation, we'd end up knowing.

    You ran into a dead end by assuming I was making a principle out of those hypotheses. Hypotheses can be biased, doesn't really matter.

    As for the theoretical framework (keep in mind it is only supposed to be a veeery rough sketch), I came to the same conclusion as I was finishing, it's only covering part of the picture. It's missing international comparison, and, as you pointed the influence of other media. Another important aspect is that going back to the drugstores is unlikely a good idea. The main competition of comics, is the same as the rest of printed media, DVDs and even TV: Internet. Which is actually an advantage. The way I see it, the perfect strategy for DC would be targeting a diverse market through Internet, the medium of the foreseeable future. This means that the "stand alone vs. multiple issues" dilemma would have to be evaluated on different terms for digital distribution.
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 12-23-2012 at 04:19 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

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