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  1. #61
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evxn View Post
    I always despised The Killing Joke. Hated Joker's origin. I feel as though it really ruined what makes him special. To me his origin MUST remain unknown. Nolan's take was so good.
    Joker had an origin prior to Killing Joke. It was pretty lame. Killing Joke was the story that added that unknown element, if anything.

    But yes, Nolan's take was excellent. Adding an origin for Joker in that film (or in the comics, really) wouldn't really anything to the character.
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 12-18-2012 at 11:51 PM.

  2. #62
    I Kick Crime in the Balls The Greatest Hero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evxn View Post
    I always despised The Killing Joke. Hated Joker's origin. I feel as though it really ruined what makes him special. To me his origin MUST remain unknown. Nolan's take was so good.
    I agree. I never EVER wanted to know ANYTHING about the Joker's past.

    But Killing Joke was still a great story. And Death of the Family is pretty crappy, in my opinion. And the ending of #15 really has me worried it's going to turn into an Arkham Asylum knock-off.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Hero View Post
    I agree. I never EVER wanted to know ANYTHING about the Joker's past.

    But Killing Joke was still a great story. And Death of the Family is pretty crappy, in my opinion. And the ending of #15 really has me worried it's going to turn into an Arkham Asylum knock-off.
    So far it looks like DoTF will be more of a "Joker: Greatest hits" story. It's taking Killing Joke, Man Who Laughs, Arkham Asylum, Death in the Family, etc. and bringing everything a full circle.

    Of course I'd rather just re-read those stories than DoTF. Unless Snyder actually kills Joker in this book. Then it would work as the finale of the Joker saga that includes the above books.

  4. #64
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    If Snyder kills Joker and manages to keep him dead for any length of time, I will retract any criticism or doubt in him I've ever expressed. My gratitude will be great.

  5. #65
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    I tried to avoid this because apparently there is no middle ground with this arc, you either hate it or compare it to great literature. So far Snyder's Batman has been the worst part of this arc. It was so boring, I literally put down the issue 4 times while reading it this week. Once again I enjoyed the back-up though. I am impressed that it looks like he might have actually brutally disfigured Alfred, but that isn't enough to make me enjoy it. I am a little curious as to what the big twist ending will be, I hope it isn't Thomas Wayne Sr. as a zombie.

  6. #66
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    There's plenty of middle ground, the problem is that a lot of people here try to paint anyone remotely critical as this irrational "Snyder hater" so it just appears otherwise.

  7. #67
    I Kick Crime in the Balls The Greatest Hero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    So far it looks like DoTF will be more of a "Joker: Greatest hits" story. It's taking Killing Joke, Man Who Laughs, Arkham Asylum, Death in the Family, etc. and bringing everything a full circle.

    Of course I'd rather just re-read those stories than DoTF. Unless Snyder actually kills Joker in this book. Then it would work as the finale of the Joker saga that includes the above books.
    That's the thing I hate, though. Joker's greatest hits! What a waste of potential! If we wanted Joker's greatest hits, we'd go back and read them. If that really is what Snyder's doing, it really REALLY sucks. Completely stupid and waste of potential.

    But what does that say about Snyder? He said this story was going to be HIS. HIS Killing Joke, his Man Who-blah blah blah. But if it's just a rehash of the good Joker stories from the past, does that mean he just really SUCKS at writing a Joker story? Or is he trying to take credit for rehashing a bunch of old ideas.

    I mean, the biggest problem, is this completely stupid Joker is the Jester, Batman is the King thing. That idea makes me want to vomit. It is just soooooooooooo dumb. I mean, sure, Joker loves Batman. I don't know what kind of love that is, but he seems to think Batman is the Yin to his Yang. Batman and Joker go together like peanut butter and jelly. We get it! That is nothing new. But Snyder is trying to push that idea SO FAR into the obvious spotlight that it has just become ridiculously moronic. This doesn't even sound like Joker. This sounds like a freakin tween goin mental over Justin Beiber and Robert Pattinson combined. Seriously, it's like the Twilight faze with Joker. He even screams at other villains about how in love he is with Batman. "Yo, Penguin! Batman is, like, so awesome. And he's the King and I'm his pretty pretty princess! Like, we are in, like SOOOOOOO LOVE! Hey, Riddler, have I told you about me and Mr. B gettin MARRIED?!?!?!?!!"

    *shoots self*

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greatest Hero View Post
    That's the thing I hate, though. Joker's greatest hits! What a waste of potential! If we wanted Joker's greatest hits, we'd go back and read them. If that really is what Snyder's doing, it really REALLY sucks. Completely stupid and waste of potential.
    To be fair that isn't to say he won't add something new to the table. We'll just have to see. All Star Superman is kind of a "Superman's Greatest Hits" in the way it draws from a ton of old stories, but it adds its own spin and weaves together to become something really unique.

    This is kind of the problem I have with his Swamp Thing run though. He's using a lot of the concepts from Alan Moore's run and oversimplifying them without adding much new himself.


    I mean, the biggest problem, is this completely stupid Joker is the Jester, Batman is the King thing. That idea makes me want to vomit. It is just soooooooooooo dumb. I mean, sure, Joker loves Batman. I don't know what kind of love that is, but he seems to think Batman is the Yin to his Yang. Batman and Joker go together like peanut butter and jelly. We get it! That is nothing new. But Snyder is trying to push that idea SO FAR into the obvious spotlight that it has just become ridiculously moronic.
    Yeah the problem is that it's so unsubtle. I love when Heath Ledger's Joker is like "What would I do without you? No. no. You complete me." It gets the thematic point across of Batman and Joker's dynamic without and hints at a creepy affection, without outright "Joker loves Batman" that we're getting here.
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 12-19-2012 at 02:49 AM.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah the problem is that it's so unsubtle. I love when Heath Ledger's Joker is like "What would I do without you? No. no. You complete me." It gets the thematic point across of Batman and Joker's dynamic without and hints at a creepy affection, without outright "Joker loves Batman" that we're getting here.
    Isn't this the major flaw with his work on Batman (bruce) in general?

  10. #70
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    Ok I've given this arc a decent shot. Really, I tried. I'd hoped it woukd be better than Owls due to its shorter length, wider Batfamily focus and a stronger concept (or what I expected would be a stronger concept). But now well I think I'll refrain from commenting further as there really aren't many positives to mention (Capullo, the B&R tie-in) but instead a loooong list of negatives. It's quite rare that I agree with pretty much EVERY critical comment about a book that I read on these boards. Too many others have outlined them already, I'll just say that I agree with them all. Bit of a weak slam from me I know, but forgive me, I've had a long day

  11. #71
    Continuity Is Life Sn4tcH's Avatar
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    Sometimes I feel like (and this isn't always, but it's striking how often), it seems most complaints on Snyder have to have a mention of Morrison, and how he's not as good. Then flip it around, most who defend Snyder it say they're read Morrison and couldn't get into it.

    I like both... almost equally, for different reasons. They're both awesome.
    Libaax: (Grant Morrison) is so fresh, a god of superhero comics and (you should) worship his world of Batman.

  12. #72
    Loading cactusmaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    You would think Morrison and Nolan would have immortalized the O'Neil/Adams Batman (both draw from that version), but Snyder has sort of gone back to the Miller narcissist Batman.
    ? The Nolan trilogy drew heaviest for tone and style from Miller's Year One.
    The two most powerful warriors are patience and time - Leo Tolstoy

  13. #73
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say Snyder's stuff is the best Bat story-telling I've read but I've been enjoying it more than the other current batman titles. I also enjoy Snyder's stories more than Morrison's.

    With both the Owls and DotF, they sarted out really good, then the middle drags a bit. With the Owls, I liked the final couple of issues a lot so i'm hoping DotF ends strong. I do hope the upcoming Joker arc doesn't have bat-crossovers. DC has had too many crossovers recently.

    As to this reading like a "Joker's Greatest Hits," I could understand being critical of this if that was not intentional. Joker has been replaying his past crimes intentionally for an as yet unknown reason. So because the the character and writer are doing this on purpose, we can't be too critical until we know what the purpose is. They aren't just trying to rehash something because it has worked in the past and will sell again.
    Chill!

  14. #74
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusmaac View Post
    ? The Nolan trilogy drew heaviest for tone and style from Miller's Year One.
    I think he's referring specifically to Bruce's personality and the way he is portrayed as a character.

  15. #75
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sn4tcH View Post
    Sometimes I feel like (and this isn't always, but it's striking how often), it seems most complaints on Snyder have to have a mention of Morrison, and how he's not as good. Then flip it around, most who defend Snyder it say they're read Morrison and couldn't get into it.

    I like both... almost equally, for different reasons. They're both awesome.
    Honestly, nowadays, the pro Snyder bring much more Morrison into the debate (usually as a way to oversimplify and dismiss the criticisms as some "you're just a Morrison lover" thing) than the haters.
    At least, that's how it feels to me.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

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