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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Batman would tell you that all information is relevant. If Diana's mother is not dead in her mind then the attack should not have impaired her...
    Why not? Essentially, her mother has been plunged into a deep coma (along with a radical physical transformation), and though this coma may be theoretically reversible, it's questionable whether it ever will be reversed. (As a reader, I believe that it will, but Diana can't count on it.) And all this happened at a time when Diana was estranged from her mother and about to be reconciled. And the sight of stone Hippolyta would remind her of the indefinite-if-note-permanent loss of all of her sisters as well. To me, that sounds traumatic enough to impair anyone. What it may not do is lay the groundwork for Diana to believe that one of Graves' spirit-parasites, the supposed "asuras," is really her mother's soul.

    ...yet she is the first to fall.Whereas Bruce, whose parents are irreversibly dead, recovers.
    She's the first to fall because she's the first to be attacked. Also, her trauma is fresh and unprocessed. Bruce has had years since childhood to build up a mature understanding of his trauma.

    Also, if she is withholding information about her mother then her statement of "So, some of us know each others secrets, and some of us are still in the dark." seems a little hypocritical.
    I don't think so--it's one thing to have kept one's name and profession secret for five years, and another to have not yet shared a recent affliction of one's parent. And why would she want to share if she feels she's been kept in the dark?
    Last edited by slvn; 12-31-2012 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #287
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Because you only have 20 pages per month, and Clark and Diana talking about secret identities is relevant to the plot while Diana and Clark talking about what happened in her own book is not.
    If Clark talking about Diana's extended family is relevant to the plot, then Diana having those lines wouldn't make a damn difference.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If Clark talking about Diana's extended family is relevant to the plot, then Diana having those lines wouldn't make a damn difference.
    Would giving that line (because it really was only one line) to Diana be that much better.? As it is, it implies that Diana has already shared recent events and revlations with Clark, and it shows that Clark understands that Wonder Woman has reasons of her own not to adopt a secret identity like his.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Why not? Essentially, her mother has been plunged into a deep coma (along with a radical physical transformation), and though this coma may be theoretically reversible, it's questionable whether it ever will be reversed. (As a reader, I believe that it will, but Diana can't count on it.) And all this happened at a time when Diana was estranged from her mother and about to be reconciled. And the sight of stone Hippolyta would remind her of the indefinite-if-note-permanent loss of all of her sisters as well. To me, that sounds traumatic enough to impair anyone. What it may not do is lay the groundwork for Diana to believe that one of Graves' spirit-parasites, the supposed "asuras," is really her mother's soul.
    Except if this is happening now then who is protecting Zola? Is she having a date with Clark while she is taking the night off from looking for Zola's baby?

    The timelines dont work out, and neither Azz or Johns is making any real attempt to explain things. Logically the events in the last 6 issues of Justice League cannot be happening at the same time as the last 6 of Wonder Woman. The only reasonable conclusion I can see is that JL is set after the events in the current book, in which she has only just learned of her alleged Olympian parentage.


    She's the first to fall because she's the first to be attacked. Also, her trauma is fresh and unprocessed. Bruce has had years since childhood to build up a mature understanding of his trauma.
    See above. And my point remains that if Diana believes her mother can be cured it makes sense that she should be able to resist the attack. Batman crumbles in the seond round because he thinks he sees his dead parents. Diana has to see Steve. Why not her mother? The idea that the loss of her mother is not a human loss is just silly. Steve is used to suit the story, but it doenst work on a character level is Diana believes her mother is dead.


    I don't think so--it's one thing to have kept one's name and profession secret for five years, and another to have not yet shared a recent affliction of one's parent. And why would she want to share if she feels she's been kept in the dark?
    So the argument here is that she has told eveyone that she is the daughter of Zeus, but not anything else that happened when she found that out? That makes little sense, since the one of first logical questions from the person you told that to would be about her mother and their relationship.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-31-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Would giving that line (because it really was only one line) to Diana be that much better.? As it is, it implies that Diana has already shared recent events and revlations with Clark, and it shows that Clark understands that Wonder Woman has reasons of her own not to adopt a secret identity like his.
    However you look at it the stories are at best disjointed, and it at worst contradictory.
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  6. #291
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Would giving that line (because it really was only one line) to Diana be that much better.? As it is, it implies that Diana has already shared recent events and revlations with Clark, and it shows that Clark understands that Wonder Woman has reasons of her own not to adopt a secret identity like his.
    To avoid the creeping feeling of imbalance and leaving readers to assume certain pertinent personal information has been revealed at some point, I believe Diana would have been the best person to speak those lines in the issue. It's such a tiny thing, I honestly don't know why there's such a need to defend it. Clark had been talking a lot, and this would have been a chance for Diana to open up. What's the big deal?

  7. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The idea that Diana's loss of her mother would not as significant to her as the loss of Bruce's parents is rubbish, but according to what Johns writes in #11 her mother is alive again. I have no idea of Azzarello agrees with this.

    The other thing is there is no explanation for how Graves knows about her father apparently being Zeus. Clearly the League knows at this point because of recent conversations. When did she tell them? We have no idea. Its all half-assed.
    I agree with you, Brett - Johns writing here feels forced (and crappy), particularly the b.s. that Diana's mom is not a "human enough loss" (though significant enough to impair her), so it has to be Steve.

    Honestly, I think Johns isn't putting in the time to think things through, especially when it comes to Diana, and he doesn't have an editor that questions these head-scratchers. They just rush the mediocre generic tropes out the door and hope the pretty pictures make it look good.
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  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    To avoid the creeping feeling of imbalance and leaving readers to assume certain pertinent personal information has been revealed at some point, I believe Diana would have been the best person to speak those lines in the issue. It's such a tiny thing, I honestly don't know why there's such a need to defend it. Clark had been talking a lot, and this would have been a chance for Diana to open up. What's the big deal?
    There's no big deal. I've said what the little difference that I see between Wonder WOman saying it and Superman saying it. If we'd been writing it together, I'd probably have leaned toward having Superman say it, just because it was a chance for him ot acknowledge that she has good reason not to have taken breaks. But if you wanted Wonder Woman to say it, I'd probably have said that's cool.

    Brett, I think Azz has been upfront about the fact that he and Johns aren't closely coordinating, and that the two comics are supposed to be happening roughly in the same timeframe, even though if you think about it too relaisticallyk, there isn't enough time fro everything to happen. For Azz, this is like how Iron Man and the Avengers used to be when he was a kid. It doesn't bother me; I see them as two fictions that are in "broad-stokes" continuity but by no means lockstep continuity with each other. For those who like close continuity, of course,, this is not going to be satisfying. But I don't think that it makes sense to infer a strict order of events (e.g., Hippolyta came back before JL 10) when we pretty much know that the two authors are not coordinating and so probably did not intend to imply any such thing.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    To avoid the creeping feeling of imbalance and leaving readers to assume certain pertinent personal information has been revealed at some point, I believe Diana would have been the best person to speak those lines in the issue. It's such a tiny thing, I honestly don't know why there's such a need to defend it. Clark had been talking a lot, and this would have been a chance for Diana to open up. What's the big deal?
    Can I also just say thinking about, if this was on tv I would expect to spend more time exploring Diana's being in the situation. For example, it would have been fun to have some guys at the restaruant staring at her every now and then and her questioning Clark about it.

    Diana: "Are you sure they don't recognize me?"

    Clark: "Pretty sure."

    Diana: "Then why are they looking at me like that."

    Clark: "I guess the same reason I am."

    And so on. Let us see her ordering, maybe even listening to what other women are talking about in bathroom [whatever that is, who knows what you guys discuss ]. But give us something more than goggle eyed wonder and a lecture on the mechanics of secret identities.
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  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Brett, I think Azz has been upfront about the fact that he and Johns aren't closely coordinating, and that the two comics are supposed to be happening roughly in the same timeframe, even though if you think about it too relaistically, there isn't enough time fro everything to happen. For Azz, this is like how Iron Man and the Avengers used to be when he was a kid. It doesn't bother me; I see them as two fictions that are in "broad-stokes" continuity but by no means lockstep continuity with each other. For those who like close continuity, of course,, this is not going to be satisfying. But I don't think that it makes sense to infer a strict order of events (e.g., Hippolyta came back before JL 10) when we pretty much know that the two authors are not coordinating and so probably did not intend to imply any such thing.
    Actually I think in years gone by things were much tighter, and can remember Editors putting in little comments like "Thor's battle with the Wrecker that led to his current state can be seen in his own book - one sale now! Editorial Eddie" That comment is a paraphrase from a crossover comic where Daredevil recruits Thor and Spidey becuase the FF are hunting him by mistake.

    But regardless of what the writers intend, the story itself implies a connection. If you show Hippolyta as clay and talk about Zues-daddy, it behooves the writers to get their facts straight and the Editors to make sure of same. But this is just what George Perez talked about when he left writing Superman recently - people writing contradictory tales and creative teams having to constantly change things because nobody can get a single clear idea of what is happening. Back in the day people the editors knew, the writers knew, and the readers knew - to the point where Stan Lee awarded No-Prizes if you found a glitch.
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  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Actually I think in years gone by things were much tighter, and can remember Editors putting in little comments like "Thor's battle with the Wrecker that led to his current state can be seen in his own book - one sale now! Editorial Eddie" That comment is a paraphrase from a crossover comic where Daredevil recruits Thor and Spidey becuase the FF are hunting him by mistake.

    But regardless of what the writers intend, the story itself implies a connection. If you show Hippolyta as clay and talk about Zues-daddy, it behooves the writers to get their facts straight and the Editors to make sure of same. But this is just what George Perez talked about when he left writing Superman recently - people writing contradictory tales and creative teams having to constantly change things because nobody can get a single clear idea of what is happening. Back in the day people the editors knew, the writers knew, and the readers knew - to the point where Stan Lee awarded No-Prizes if you found a glitch.
    I think i'm with SLVN on this one. I remember the type of continuity you're talking about with the Disclaimer Boxes in comics pages, but Azzarello said he is NOT collaborating with Johns, period. It can be frustrating because one wants to bring in a connection, but they're not writing it that way. It's harder for the industry to coordinate that way but apparently its limiting to what they can do in shared books (JL/WW...) The appearance in the Batwoman comic would be difficult to explain as well.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    ... But this is just what George Perez talked about when he left writing Superman recently - people writing contradictory tales and creative teams having to constantly change things because nobody can get a single clear idea of what is happening. Back in the day people the editors knew, the writers knew, and the readers knew - to the point where Stan Lee awarded No-Prizes if you found a glitch.
    Wasn't that more of an editorial interference problem? The editors kept messing around with Perez's plans--in part to keep Superman in sync with other books. A similar situation would be if Azz were forced to change his plans to keep consistent with JL. But Azz says none of his plans have been blocked.

    There do seem to have been changes to the JL plans--a recent solicit mentioned an Element Woman fight that never happened. These changes may be contributing to the disjointed feel of JL, and they may have have resulted in part from a need to synch JL up with other books (like JLD, JLA and Phantom Stranger) that are all marching towards Trinity Wars. But they don't seem to have much to do with Wonder Woman, as far as I can tell.

    And some of the contradictions you're objecting to are only contradictions if you make assumptions about stuff like how traumatic or non-traumatic having your mother petrified would be. And there are no real answers to those questions, since people in the real world don't get petrified. But if you compare it to a real-world situation like having a family member in a coma that may prove incurable, I think that that could be pretty traumatic.

    I also don't think we can assume that the severity of a loss is what determines whether its useful for Graves' purposes. Not being a "human" loss doesn't necessarily mean the loss of Hippolyta is less severe or traumatic; it might just mean that it didn't furnish a departed soul. It could have easily been explained that Graves needed actual departed souls to work with to bring his plans to completion, or that he needed Wonder Woman to believe that she was interacting with an actual departed soul and that she would not have believed this in the case of Hippolyta. As I said somewhere above, though, I DO agree that it would have been good to be clearer about why the loss of Hippolyta didn't serve Graves' purposes.

    I'm not sure how great "no prizes" and the cultivation of continuity cops were for comics. I think that training people to nit-pick, and to think that nitpicking about trivia is true critical thinking, doesn't encourage them to enjoy imaginative works.

    Except if this is happening now then who is protecting Zola?
    Lennox. Actually, some of the JL stuff could happen between issues 12 and 13. At the beginning of 13, Wonder Woman seems to be catching up with Lennox as if she'd been away for a bit (maybe a night or two).
    Last edited by slvn; 01-01-2013 at 08:42 AM.

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Wasn't that more of an editorial interference problem? The editors kept messing around with Perez's plans--in part to keep Superman in sync with other books.
    A similar situation would be if Azz were forced to change his plans to keep consistent with JL. But Azz says none of his plans have been blocked.

    There do seem to have been changes to the JL plans--a recent solicit mentioned an Element Woman fight that never happened--and those changes might have something to do with synching up with other books (like JLD, JLA and Phantom Stranger) that are all marching towards Trinity Wars. But they don't seem to have much to do with Wonder Woman, as far as I can tell.
    That's because out of the "Trinity" Wonder Woman was the one most messed up sales-wise. She was red-lining with only 1 book. Superman, and most certainly Batman did NOT need CPR. Therefore they handed Azzarello a blank canvas and said "Here.. she's yours to do with as you please... just FIX it".

    So yeah.. no one is going to tell him what to do just yet.

  14. #299
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    It is a good idea for Superman to teach Wonder Woman about secret identities because in her own title Wonder Woman has no idea what she is doing and according to her speeches it seems she is just too dumb or mentally deficient to be capable of creating a secret identity for herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tunneler View Post
    It is a good idea for Superman to teach Wonder Woman about secret identities because in her own title Wonder Woman has no idea what she is doing and according to her speeches it seems she is just too dumb or mentally deficient to be capable of creating a secret identity for herself.
    I have no idea what speeches in her own book you are talking about, sorry?
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