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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Thanks. Interesting how Diana's mother and Steve are positioned as such significant losses and how these scenes show how deeply she cared for both of them. I agree with Random Falls that it's odd to not consider the loss of one's mother as a "human loss" (whatever that means) just because she was an Amazon. Loss is loss, to me.
    I wondered about that too. I'm not sure, and it could have been clearer, but I think maybe the idea was that there had to be an actual dead person, or at least the target (in this case, Wonder Woman) had to believe that the person was dead, in order for the scheme to ultimately work. (I believe Grave does say that Steve needed to be dead, and the fact that he was still alive screwed the plan up.) Hippolyta's soul may still be within her body--or at least Wonder Woman may believe that it is, so it might not have possible to convince her, and keep her convinced, that the image of her mother was more than an image and was actually her soul.

    I'm still confused about who Clark would consider part of Diana's existing extended family that places demands on her as Wonder Woman 24/7. With her mother and the rest of the Amazons gone, I believe, and with Hera, Lennox, and Zola presently comprising her supporting cast (or at least characters she deals with) in Azzarello's Wonder Woman, if I'm not mistaken, who among them would Diana really consider family? I guess I think it's such an odd way to label and describe who currently makes up Diana's life. I wish the scene would have had Clark actually ask Diana about herself and let her talk about herself in ways that line up more explicitly with her book as well as would have allowed Diana to express her thoughts and feelings in more depth.
    I think he meant the gods--whom, for the most part, she would not have chosen as her family, but who are her blood relatives and who are all mixed up in her business. With her "stepmother" trying to kill her unborn sibling's mother, and her uncle trying to force her to marry him, and so on, Clark can understand how Wonder Woman's unruly "extended family" makes it difficult for her to take breaks.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-30-2012 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #272
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think he meant the gods--whom, for the most part, she would not have chosen as her family, but who are her blood relatives and who are all mixed up in her business. With her "stepmother" trying to kill her unborn sibling's mother, and her uncle trying to force her to marry him, and so on, Clark can understand how Wonder Woman's unruly "extended family" makes it difficult for her to take breaks.
    But what is the full extent of Clark's knowledge of Diana's relationship with the gods? How does he know about Diana's blood relatives getting mixed up in her business? It seems like it would have made more sense to see Diana opening up to Clark about her life before he started making offhand comments and references to it. Just a day prior Diana didn't know about Clark's parents or much about his human life at all besides a name and a profession, so how does Clark know enough about Diana's familial issues that he can just allude to them in conversation?

  3. #273

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    Maybe he heard about things such as Diana fighting centaurs on London Bridge and talking to Poseidon in the Thames on the news, and came to a natural conclusion?
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  4. #274
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by althechi View Post
    Maybe he heard about things such as Diana fighting centaurs on London Bridge and talking to Poseidon in the Thames on the news, and came to a natural conclusion?
    That's quite an assumption to make to then drop into casual conversation without asking for confirmation first. I just think it would have worked better if Diana had talked about the stresses of her own twisted family life on the page first. Even if there is some sort of hypothetical rationale for Clark having the information, it seemed like a good time for Diana to open up. Clark had been sharing a lot about his life and family, so why not give Diana a chance to reciprocate?

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    But what is the full extent of Clark's knowledge of Diana's relationship with the gods? How does he know about Diana's blood relatives getting mixed up in her business? It seems like it would have made more sense to see Diana opening up to Clark about her life before he started making offhand comments and references to it. Just a day prior Diana didn't know about Clark's parents or much about his human life at all besides a name and a profession, so how does Clark know enough about Diana's familial issues that he can just allude to them in conversation?
    Because she told him off-panel some time in the past. Duh.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Because she told him off-panel some time in the past. Duh.
    Just like...

    Superman: Diana, what's wrong? Seems you been rocking out a lot lately.
    Wonder Woman: Oh, nothing. I just found out I have a father and not actually made of clay.
    Superman: .... and that's bad?
    Wonder Woman: Well, I sort of don't feel so magical like I used to.
    Superman: Being made of dirt made you feel magical?
    Wonder Woman: That and being a princess.
    Superman: So who's your daddy?
    Wonder Woman: Zeus.
    Superman: So, you went from thinking you were made of clay to being a child of a god?
    Wonder Woman: You know, when you put it like that... does make it sound pretty good.
    Superman: Well, you could have been the only survivor of a race of gods.
    Wonder Woman: Been meaning to mention, that's really a downer of a story to open with when meeting someone new.

  7. #277
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Because she told him off-panel some time in the past. Duh.
    I get that. What I'm not happy about is that we have to make these sorts of excuses and assumptions about Diana at all. While Wonder Woman gets to know Superman on the page, Superman learns important information about Wonder Woman's life off-panel. It's unequal.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I get that. What I'm not happy about is that we have to make these sorts of excuses and assumptions about Diana at all. While Wonder Woman gets to know Superman on the page, Superman learns important information about Wonder Woman's life off-panel. It's unequal.
    They've known each other for five years now. A lot of stuff must have happened on a personal level between most of the Leaguers that we're not going to see on-panel.

    It's also not an IMO very interesting scene, and not a scene that the Johns/Lee collaboration has even a remote chance of doing well.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  9. #279
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Having just re-read Justice League #11 and #12, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I only see Graves using Steve Trevor to manipulate Wonder Woman. Graves mentions that since Diana is the daughter of Zeus and Queen of the Amazons, she needed to experience a human loss. It wasn't clear, in my opinion, which side of Wonder Woman's family she identified with most. My impression is that Wonder Woman would primarily see herself as an Amazon; however with her newly discovered links to the gods and immersion in our world, she seems caught in between worlds and cultures. I don't know if Diana has opened up to anyone in the Justice League about her family and identity issues. Clark's knowledge was more complete than we've seen Diana share, so either they've talked off page about it or it's a plot hole. All of this confusion could have easily been avoided if Johns had just allowed Diana to give voice to her own thoughts and feelings during her recent conversations with Clark, especially during their dinner date.
    The idea that Diana's loss of her mother would not as significant to her as the loss of Bruce's parents is rubbish, but according to what Johns writes in #11 her mother is alive again. I have no idea of Azzarello agrees with this.

    The other thing is there is no explanation for how Graves knows about her father apparently being Zeus. Clearly the League knows at this point because of recent conversations. When did she tell them? We have no idea. Its all half-assed.
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    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  10. #280
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    They've known each other for five years now. A lot of stuff must have happened on a personal level between most of the Leaguers that we're not going to see on-panel.
    With all due respect, so what? I've stated repeatedly that I understand that one can possibly guess or assume that Superman just knows this stuff about Diana from off panel conversations. Yet, given that, why is it that Superman is given page time to talk about stuff allegedly Diana should know but she doesn't get to do the same about herself? Writing a good and equal relationship dynamic, and a more interesting one, should involve a give and take in a conversation where one person isn't doing most of the talking. I don't even think it's accurate to assume that these teammates know each other that well. The prelude to the Smallville trip included Wonder Woman saying exactly that to Superman. All I ask and am complaining about is that it would have been a better scene if Johns had let Diana talk about her own life and for what she said to be both factually accurate and emotionally substantive.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    t it would have been a better scene if Johns had let Diana talk about her own life and for what she said to be both factually accurate and emotionally substantive.
    Heck, I´d have been happy if she managed to talk at all.
    There' s no agency on her part, so far all she does is listen to him and react to the things he says and does.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    With all due respect, so what? I've stated repeatedly that I understand that one can possibly guess or assume that Superman just knows this stuff about Diana from off panel conversations. Yet, given that, why is it that Superman is given page time to talk about stuff allegedly Diana should know but she doesn't get to do the same about herself?
    Because you only have 20 pages per month, and Clark and Diana talking about secret identities is relevant to the plot while Diana and Clark talking about what happened in her own book is not.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The idea that Diana's loss of her mother would not as significant to her as the loss of Bruce's parents is rubbish, but according to what Johns writes in #11 her mother is alive again. I have no idea of Azzarello agrees with this.
    You mean because Wonder Woman agrees with Aquaman that Hippolyta lives on Paradise Island? I don't think we can read too much into that. Wonder Woman probably never considered Hippolyta "dead"--only magically petrified, which may be a reversible condition. (And we now know from Wonder Woman a3 and 14 that Wonder Woman is thinking about how it could be reversed.) She just doesn't choose that moment to share Hippolyta's condition with Aquaman and the rest of the team. After all, that whole scene was about how the Leaguers were, in her words, keeping some fellow members "in the dark" about some parts of their lives. It's not clear to me why, in that context, she would have felt the need to give an update about her mother.


    The other thing is there is no explanation for how Graves knows about her father apparently being Zeus. Clearly the League knows at this point because of recent conversations. When did she tell them? We have no idea. Its all half-assed.[/QUOTE]

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Because you only have 20 pages per month, and Clark and Diana talking about secret identities is relevant to the plot while Diana and Clark talking about what happened in her own book is not.
    No it isnt. The plot is the attack by Atlantis.

    The subplot is the relationship between Clark and Diana. Significant points about either of them are relevant. For example, Clark has talked a lot about his life as Clark Kent but Diana has said nothing about her life in London.

    And 20 pages is plenty, if you dont waste it.
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    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    You mean because Wonder Woman agrees with Aquaman that Hippolyta lives on Paradise Island? I don't think we can read too much into that. Wonder Woman probably never considered Hippolyta "dead"--only magically petrified, which may be a reversible condition. (And we now know from Wonder Woman a3 and 14 that Wonder Woman is thinking about how it could be reversed.) She just doesn't choose that moment to share Hippolyta's condition with Aquaman and the rest of the team. After all, that whole scene was about how the Leaguers were, in her words, keeping some fellow members "in the dark" about some parts of their lives. It's not clear to me why, in that context, she would have felt the need to give an update about her mother.
    Batman would tell you that all information is relevant. If Diana's mother is not dead in her mind then the attack should not have impaired her, yet she is the first to fall. Whereas Bruce, whose parents are irreversibly dead, recovers.

    Also, if she is withholding information about her mother then her statement of "So, some of us know each others secrets, and some of us are still in the dark." seems a little hypocritical.

    But mostly I feel the problem is an almost total lack of cooperation between the writers on the two books.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


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