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  1. #256
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    On this, I tend to agree more with Slvn. Sure, we don't share everything with everyone - but that's a far cry from living 2 very different lives (eg, Clark Kent/Superman), and even more so for a "Diana Prince," as "Diana Prince" was a complete fabrication.



    One reason I like the lasso. It shouldn't be something just anyone can handle, imo; it should take someone extraordinary.



    On this, I tend to agree more with Brett. You have pointed out in the past how, throughout Azzarello's story, Diana identifies herself much more with Mom's side of the family tree. And given that Clark has heard some stories of her "extended family," I'd think he would be smart enough to not lump her in among them, well-intended or not.

    So, for me, it's yet another scene that Johns didn't really think it through and just rushed it out the door.



    I get that, I'd just like a little less dumb, please. I know it's Johns and DiDio in charge, but (in my book), it's still lackluster and sub-par even for them. I think JL deserves better.
    I know Superman well enough.. but not enough to gauge whether he usually has "Foot In Mouth Disease". That comment regarding extended family was a major WTF moment for me, and should've been for her as well. Since we no longer have thought-balloons in comics who knows how she took it, but quite frankly the only "family" she has to be proud of at this moment is maybe Hephaestus. By lumping her in with the rest, he might as well have called her a conniving b*tch because that's what most of them are (so far).

    And yeah... alot of JL scenes are being dispensed from a conveyor belt that's turned on at a high rate of speed.

  2. #257

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    "Foot in Mouth Disease" - lol - yeah, how's that shoe taste Clark? Nothing quite like indirectly insulting the lady on your first date.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think the reason is it would take away space from Clark explaining stuff to her. And if somebody called somebody from Scotland Irish, or from Canada American, I notice they tend to correct straight away.
    Wouldn't a more appropriate analogy be someone with one Scottish parent and one Irish parent? Depending on the context, I'm not sure that such a person would always object to someone light-heartedly referring to her as "Irish," even if she was raised in Scotland and identified more with the Scottish parent. If Diana had objected, I suspect that some would be complaining about how defensive and tone-deaf and strident she seemed.

  4. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Wouldn't a more appropriate analogy be someone with one Scottish parent and one Irish parent? Depending on the context, I'm not sure that such a person would always object to someone light-heartedly referring to her as "Irish," even if she was raised in Scotland and identified more with the Scottish parent. If Diana had objected, I suspect that some would be complaining about how defensive and tone-deaf and strident she seemed.
    Not a great example - did her Irsish aunt kill her Scotish mother and destroy all of Scotland, only to have other Irish kin try to force her into a very creepy marriage, killer her unborn half-sister, etc. etc.?

    I'm not saying I think Johns should have had Diana object - I think Johns should have put a little more thought into what Clark was saying in the first place. It's rather cliche to have him call her a "goddess," but it doesn't feel well thoughtout at all if he really has heard her stories and knows what she's been through. "Hey, I know your Irish aunt killed your mom just a few weeks ago, but you're so Irish! Ain't I light-hearted and funny?" Um, no.

    I know he's a big cheese now, but Johns could use a better editor pointing these things out.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  5. #260
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Not a great example - did her Irsish aunt kill her Scotish mother and destroy all of Scotland, only to have other Irish kin try to force her into a very creepy marriage, killer her unborn half-sister, etc. etc.?

    I'm not saying I think Johns should have had Diana object - I think Johns should have put a little more thought into what Clark was saying in the first place. It's rather cliche to have him call her a "goddess," but it doesn't feel well thoughtout at all if he really has heard her stories and knows what she's been through. "Hey, I know your Irish aunt killed your mom just a few weeks ago, but you're so Irish! Ain't I light-hearted and funny?" Um, no.

    I know he's a big cheese now, but Johns could use a better editor pointing these things out.
    Well I commented earlier about that little dinner-conversation, but one thing I left out is.. when he called her a "Goddess" suddenly a picture of Storm (Ororo) came to mind.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Not a great example - did her Irsish aunt kill her Scotish mother and destroy all of Scotland, only to have other Irish kin try to force her into a very creepy marriage, killer her unborn half-sister, etc. etc.?
    OK, we'll say one Irish Catholic parent and one English parent, then. :)

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Not a great example - did her Irsish aunt kill her Scotish mother and destroy all of Scotland, only to have other Irish kin try to force her into a very creepy marriage, killer her unborn half-sister, etc. etc.?

    I'm not saying I think Johns should have had Diana object - I think Johns should have put a little more thought into what Clark was saying in the first place. It's rather cliche to have him call her a "goddess," but it doesn't feel well thoughtout at all if he really has heard her stories and knows what she's been through. "Hey, I know your Irish aunt killed your mom just a few weeks ago, but you're so Irish! Ain't I light-hearted and funny?" Um, no.

    I know he's a big cheese now, but Johns could use a better editor pointing these things out.
    I think Clark's comment was a window for her to open up to him about what her family is really like. We dont even know how he knows anything about her apparent Olympian heritage. When was this revealed to the Justice League? Have they encountered any of the gods and have some firsthand knowledge? Who the hell knows? Everything is served up like a jigsaw puzzle with only half the peices. "You can fill in the gaps from what you get, can't you?" Yes, but since I am doing half the work could I get a 50% discout?

    The other thing is that more than half the people buying the book DONT read Wonder Woman according to the sales figures. So those readers have no clear idea what Clark is talking about.

    And finally, in no issue of her own book that I can recall has Diana identified herself as a goddess. In fact she seems to take pains to distance herself from the idea.As slvn himself pointed out to me she DOES identify herself as an Amazon. But here that status is overlooked. Her being a goddess is played up as being more important that being a daughter of Themyscira. It's her father's heritage that defines her, not her mothers.
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  8. #263
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think Clark's comment was a window for her to open up to him about what her family is really like. We dont even know how he knows anything about her apparent Olympian heritage. When was this revealed to the Justice League? Have they encountered any of the gods and have some firsthand knowledge? Who the hell knows? Everything is served up like a jigsaw puzzle with only half the peices. "You can fill in the gaps from what you get, can't you?" Yes, but since I am doing half the work could I get a 50% discout?

    The other thing is that more than half the people buying the book DONT read Wonder Woman according to the sales figures. So those readers have no clear idea what Clark is talking about.

    And finally, in no issue of her own book that I can recall has Diana identified herself as a goddess. In fact she seems to take pains to distance herself from the idea.As slvn himself pointed out to me she DOES identify herself as an Amazon. But here that status is overlooked. Her being a goddess is played up as being more important that being a daughter of Themyscira. It's her father's heritage that defines her, not her mothers.
    That's probably the biggest thing that nags at me about WW over in JL - she *just* found out about her heritage in her own book, and yet it seems everyone over in JL knows it. Clearly she talks openly about it now that she's found out...?

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    That's probably the biggest thing that nags at me about WW over in JL - she *just* found out about her heritage in her own book, and yet it seems everyone over in JL knows it. Clearly she talks openly about it now that she's found out...?
    Apparently Johns Diana doesn't have anything else to talk about :)

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And finally, in no issue of her own book that I can recall has Diana identified herself as a goddess. In fact she seems to take pains to distance herself from the idea.As slvn himself pointed out to me she DOES identify herself as an Amazon. But here that status is overlooked. Her being a goddess is played up as being more important that being a daughter of Themyscira. It's her father's heritage that defines her, not her mothers.
    Don't forget that when Graves shows Wonder Woman her greatest lost so the "asuras" can feed on her pain, it's the loss of her mother. So her mother is pretty important to her. And in the conversation at the memorial in #12, she disidentified with Zeus; if I remember correctly, she says "We're not like Zeus, but we're not like them (that is, mortals) either."

    That's probably the biggest thing that nags at me about WW over in JL - she *just* found out about her heritage in her own book, and yet it seems everyone over in JL knows it. Clearly she talks openly about it now that she's found out...?
    Do they? I remember that GL in Action comments that she has met Zeus, but he doesn't say she's Zeus' daughter. Of course, that was five years ago, so even she didn't know. But other than Superman, who she might have updated off-panel after they started to get closer, who else has mentioned that she's descended from gods? (You're probably right; I'm just not remembering it.)

  11. #266
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Don't forget that when Graves shows Wonder Woman her greatest lost so the "asuras" can feed on her pain, it's the loss of her mother. So her mother is pretty important to her. And in the conversation at the memorial in #12, she disidentified with Zeus; if I remember correctly, she says "We're not like Zeus, but we're not like them (that is, mortals) either."
    Having just re-read Justice League #11 and #12, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I only see Graves using Steve Trevor to manipulate Wonder Woman. Graves mentions that since Diana is the daughter of Zeus and Queen of the Amazons, she needed to experience a human loss. It wasn't clear, in my opinion, which side of Wonder Woman's family she identified with most. My impression is that Wonder Woman would primarily see herself as an Amazon; however with her newly discovered links to the gods and immersion in our world, she seems caught in between worlds and cultures. I don't know if Diana has opened up to anyone in the Justice League about her family and identity issues. Clark's knowledge was more complete than we've seen Diana share, so either they've talked off page about it or it's a plot hole. All of this confusion could have easily been avoided if Johns had just allowed Diana to give voice to her own thoughts and feelings during her recent conversations with Clark, especially during their dinner date.

  12. #267
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Having just re-read Justice League #11 and #12, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I only see Graves using Steve Trevor to manipulate Wonder Woman. Graves mentions that since Diana is the daughter of Zeus and Queen of the Amazons, she needed to experience a human loss. It wasn't clear, in my opinion, which side of Wonder Woman's family she identified with most. My impression is that Wonder Woman would primarily see herself as an Amazon; however with her newly discovered links to the gods and immersion in our world, she seems caught in between worlds and cultures. I don't know if Diana has opened up to anyone in the Justice League about her family and identity issues. Clark's knowledge was more complete than we've seen Diana share, so either they've talked off page about it or it's a plot hole. All of this confusion could have easily been avoided if Johns had just allowed Diana to give voice to her own thoughts and feelings during her recent conversations with Clark, especially during their dinner date.

  13. #268
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    That was the end of issue #10 wasn't it?

    Weird how Graves managed to work out that Diana was Zeus' daughter but apparently didn't know that her mother had recently been killed and all her people cursed. Or maybe he doesn't consider that human loss.

  14. #269
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Thanks. Interesting how Diana's mother and Steve are positioned as such significant losses and how these scenes show how deeply she cared for both of them. I agree with Random Falls that it's odd to not consider the loss of one's mother as a "human loss" (whatever that means) just because she was an Amazon. Loss is loss, to me. I'm still confused about who Clark would consider part of Diana's existing extended family that places demands on her as Wonder Woman 24/7. With her mother and the rest of the Amazons gone, I believe, and with Hera, Lennox, and Zola presently comprising her supporting cast (or at least characters she deals with) in Azzarello's Wonder Woman, if I'm not mistaken, who among them would Diana really consider family? I guess I think it's such an odd way to label and describe who currently makes up Diana's life. I wish the scene would have had Clark actually ask Diana about herself and let her talk about herself in ways that line up more explicitly with her book as well as would have allowed Diana to express her thoughts and feelings in more depth.

  15. #270
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Considering that less than half the readers of JL are reading WW, it would have been a really great time to fill in those readers that aren't on WW current status quo. She could have explained to Clark that she has only just discovered that she's Zeus's daughter, and then it could possibly have been implied that maybe she's not comfortable with it yet, and that maybe a lot of her problems at the moment don't just stem from issues with Steve, Graves and Cheetah but also that her life is in an emotional upheaval. Though mentioning that her mother just died and all her people are cursed might be a bit of a downer on a first date.

    But no, her vapidly exclaiming that glasses are the best thing ever for hiding yourself was a much better use of panel space.

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