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  1. #241

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    I do enjoy a good conga line.

    I'm also curious to see what others think about the reasoning given by Clark, as shown in Rob's post above:

    - "When they do get a look at us, they see us from far away or they're looking up at us from the ground."

    - "I just don't think a lof of people imagine we have a life outside the Justice League."

    Maybe I need a bigger 'almost,' but I'm not really buying that. If folks in the DCU are much like folks here, then I'd wager they'd be very snoopy. Whether it's sports stars, movie stars, rock stars, or even the President, we love to find every little tidbit of info regarding celebrities life outside of what makes them a celebrity. And the fact that Superman, and the others, stood for a grand photo op. at the end of #6 would mean nearly everyone has seen a close-up of his face.

    Add in the fact that this world doesn't really trust them, I think tons of people would be trying to find them to know what they do when they aren't accounted for in public sightings (eg, 'Superman was seen in Iceland helping to stop a volcano').
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  2. #242

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    I can see what Clark said. Seeing a photograph and someone up close in person is a little different. And the general public is to lazy to try to find out everything about people they dont trust, sure there are some like the people on the internet who would try to find out everything about them but out side of that I dont think it is a large enough audience of people who are going to take time out of their day to find out what Superman does when we dont see him saving the day somewhere. That is what the government is for.

    Plus it is harder to track the heroes then it is your usual celeberties since they can fly, speed, have a watchtower in space. They are just to hard to keep track of. Thats why Peter Parker was so good at getting exclusive pictures of Spiderman since he well was Spiderman and knew where he was going to be and was able to set up a camera before hopping into action.

    Though it would be funny to see tabloid magazines make up stories about the heroes. I can only imagine that there would be plenty of "Wonder Woman knocked up by Superman! Reported to have a 3 eyed baby!"
    Last edited by Primal Slayer; 12-27-2012 at 12:04 AM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Thank you for your concern, but I dare say you don't actually know what you are talking about. The girlfriend of the story is a real person, and her glasses and changing hairstyles are real as well (and she laughed at the joke). But I am glad that you can see that it doesn't take great powers of observation to figure out these grand disguises. ;)
    I always know what I am talking about, one of the benefits of teaching English. I knew your gf was real, but you cant set yourself up like that and not expect me to take the shot.

    "HAL!?!" Yes, Hal, that dainty little mask will keep anyone from finding out your secret ID.
    This is where Robs wise words are proved true. You'll believe in super powers but not the ability to disguise their owners.


    Of course you agree with both - you posted it. But it's still fiction.
    Does the sun rise in the East? I guess not, since I see that happening in Superman and therefor it must be fiction.

    Or is it real world wisdom translated onto fictional scenarios. Ex Presidents and the immediate families of Presidents have a security detail I believe? Why do spouses and children of Presidents have a security detail? They dont make decisions in government. But they are targets for those who might affect those decisions. Or attack the United States through the office of the Presidency.

    Obviously democrady cannot work if the President's identity is a secret, but this illustrates the point than having great power does sometimes create a legitimate threat to those you care about. Clark and other supers are not wrong to want to do what they can to minimize those risks.

    You already forgot what 'evidence' means, have you forgotten what 'cause' means as well?
    I have yet to see your evidence of how many non-supers get murdered where the hero has a secret id that the perpetrator of the homicide has not penetrated.

    Aside moment - I'm curious, did I miss some posts or am I just not remembering your robust zeal towards the selfish nature of Supers dating normals when WW was dating Tom?
    Tom is way beyond normal.

    Well, 'tis hard to say how long, or how much, she was wondering - since she (and the others) just found out that he was a reporter in #10. Poor, Ollie, didn't they tell him he can't join the party because they were all so close? So close but don't know #### about each other? For having losts of super-speed, these folks are SLOW in getting to know each other.
    Agreed. Clearly only Batman and Cyborg knew about Clarks actual identity, and I suspect only Batman was given the info. Had to laugh rereading the line from Superman about Bats trushing him considering what we saw at the end of last ish.

    And per slvn's statement, again it seems bizaare to me that Diana would not realize that Superman IS the 'secret life'. Her actual name is Diana, not Wonder Woman.

    But then, after re-reading some JL, and remembering that Johns couldn't even keep Steve's rank consistent from #3 to #4, I've kind of given up hope that Johns would coordiante with Azzarello and others, and hope that he simply keeps track of what he, himself, is writing.
    May I also say I find it incongrous, after all we have seen in her book, that Diana would allow Clark to call her a 'goddess' without correcting him.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And per slvn's statement, again it seems bizaare to me that Diana would not realize that Superman IS the 'secret life'. Her actual name is Diana, not Wonder Woman.
    That's not what she tells the Amazons at the end of #3. :)

    I don't think she thought Superman was the name his parents gave him. I think she thought that the heroic identity, from her perspective, was the real deal--the self that had an authentic purpose in the world and was meaningful to her and others and wasn't hiding his inner life. The self fighting valiantly to save the world was real; the other must have just been a cover. She didnn't know, of course, that Clark Kent is a hero too.

    Again, even Superman acknowledges in 15 that it is as Clark that he wears a "mask," his unnecessary glasses. In a certain sense, the real self is the one in which you are not masked.


    May I also say I find it incongrous, after all we have seen in her book, that Diana would allow Clark to call her a 'goddess' without correcting him.
    Goddess, demigoddess; tomato, tomahto. :)
    Last edited by slvn; 12-27-2012 at 09:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    HISTORY OF THE JUSTICE LEAGUE

    year 0- Superman first appears, whispers of a Batman begin, and other origin based tomfoolery.

    year 1- the justice league forms, Morrison's AC, Batman takes a boy into his home and he dons tights.

    Year 2-5: Green Lantern dies, and gets a lot of replacements, Batman brings home more boys, one takes over while he dies, the rest fart about, and some how blackest night is still canon. Oh and a 4 year conga line party occurs where no real connections are made between teammates.

    year 5: WW and Superman date and Diana discovers that having a secret identity has benefits, which she couldn't figure out before because of that kicking 4 year conga line party distracting her. (to be perfectly fair it was a REALLY kicking party)

    year 6-10: characters develop... meaning new readers will be confused and alienated by history! Oh, Noes!!!

    year 10: Reboot! Superman Batman and Flash wind up in a love triangle, green lantern is replaced by a scientologist samoan, and Wonder Woman marries Nu elongated man (DC bills it the biggest plot twist ever)
    Sorry, but I'm at work and my Googling time isn't what it is at home! But, is this like the year 2-5 that you had in mind!?


  6. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I always know what I am talking about, one of the benefits of teaching English. I knew your gf was real, but you cant set yourself up like that and not expect me to take the shot.
    Do you enjoy taking shots you know will miss? ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    This is where Robs wise words are proved true. You'll believe in super powers but not the ability to disguise their owners.
    Ha - nice. Super powers seem more like science and magic that's above my pay grade of understanding (except when writers try to explain them which, too often, shouldn't happen as the explanation is so often crap). On the other hand, Superman, easily one of the most famous people on the planet, spends everyday in a news room of people looking for him, but they can't tell it's him because he's wearing glasses? That's something I can understand, and I understand it's likely to fail. It was even worse with Diana at the DMA. No wonder so many bad guys don't have much trouble finding the secret ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Does the sun rise in the East? I guess not, since I see that happening in Superman and therefor it must be fiction.
    Very poor comparison. The sun rising in the East is an established scientific fact - Jor-El's speech is scripted fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Or is it real world wisdom translated onto fictional scenarios. Ex Presidents and the immediate families of Presidents have a security detail I believe? Why do spouses and children of Presidents have a security detail? They dont make decisions in government. But they are targets for those who might affect those decisions. Or attack the United States through the office of the Presidency.

    Obviously democrady cannot work if the President's identity is a secret, but this illustrates the point than having great power does sometimes create a legitimate threat to those you care about. Clark and other supers are not wrong to want to do what they can to minimize those risks.
    Much better comparison. My position is not that no one would ever want to harm the loved ones of Superheroes. My position is that writers over use the trope so it becomes laughable. Can you imagine President Obama walking down the street, wearing glasses, and no one is going to notice? I doubt the Secret Service are going to trust his life, and those of his family, to a pair of glasses.

    Further, I think it makes for a better DCU when there's more of a variety, some characters want to live with a secret ID, some don't. I'm fine with Superman wanting a secret ID, even though I do think it's selfish, in its own way, to endanger people around you without their knowledge and consent. Here, I bring up the selfish aspect because you said it was selfish to not have a secret ID. If I were Steve, I'd much rather be in the know, rather than having Diana gamble that no one will discover the ID and attack me without me even knowing about the risk.

    In other words, I'm not saying there's no validity to the argument for a secret ID - I'm saying it isn't a perfect answer, it's not the only answer, and that other approaches have their own validity as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I have yet to see your evidence of how many non-supers get murdered where the hero has a secret id that the perpetrator of the homicide has not penetrated.
    Well, you can keep waiting, because I never said I was going to provide such evidence. I simply laugh at the idea of secret IDs working, and thus all heroes wanting one, because writers don't want to stick to them working - they want bad guys to attack the loved ones, whether or not there's a secret. It's over-played. The Amazing Spider-Man movie was a refreshing change of pace for the simple fact that the bad guy wasn't all about kidnapping Gwen for the grand finale.

    Now, LET'S CONGA! ;)
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    That's not what she tells the Amazons at the end of #3. :)
    And how many times have we heard her tell Zola to call her Diana? Does anybody in her comic address her as Wonder Woman in common parlance?

    [I don't think she thought Superman was the name his parents gave him. I think she thought that the heroic identity, from her perspective, was the real deal--the self that had an authentic purpose in the world and was meaningful to her and others and wasn't hiding his inner life. The self fighting valiantly to save the world was real; the other must have just been a cover. She didnn't know, of course, that Clark Kent is a hero too.

    Again, even Superman acknowledges in 15 that it is as Clark that he wears a "mask," his unnecessary glasses. In a certain sense, the real self is the one in which you are not masked.
    Thats Clark. Unless we are calling my underpants a mask.



    Goddess, demigoddess; tomato, tomahto. :)
    Her comments to Strife show her generally low opinion of gods. I dont think she would like being called one.
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Ha - nice. Super powers seem more like science and magic that's above my pay grade of understanding (except when writers try to explain them which, too often, shouldn't happen as the explanation is so often crap). On the other hand, Superman, easily one of the most famous people on the planet, spends everyday in a news room of people looking for him, but they can't tell it's him because he's wearing glasses? That's something I can understand, and I understand it's likely to fail. It was even worse with Diana at the DMA. No wonder so many bad guys don't have much trouble finding the secret ID.
    Her mask wasnt the glasses, it was the outfit.



    Another tribute to Toms incredible powers of perception
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And how many times have we heard her tell Zola to call her Diana? Does anybody in her comic address her as Wonder Woman in common parlance?
    I wasn't entirely serious when I mentioned the end of #3 in this context. Hence the smiley face. The real point is that seeing Clark as the disguise doesn't mean she thinks that Superman is his legal name or the name his parents gave him. It just means that she sees Superman as his authentic self, defined by his actions and requiring no mask--which, from a certain perspective, is kind of true. Superman says himselfin #15 that he decided that it was as Clark, not Superman, that he would wear a "mask" (the glasses). (It's also wrong, from perspectives Diana didn't have--she didn't know, for example, the degree to which Clark is a hero as a journalist, as seen in Action.)

    But in answer to your question, yes, gods do address her as Wonder Woman, just as they address each other by their functions or domains interchangeably with names. (I'm not sure whether you consider the speech of gods to automatically outside common parlance--but there aren't very many mortals in the book to go by.) Certainly, Diana is a more personal, less formal name, and so Diana tells her to Zola to call her that. But at the same time, it's when Zola recognizes her as Wonder Woman that she begins to realize she can trust her. Zola trusts Wonder Woman because of her known heroism, not because of her name.Maybe names don't matter as much as actions in Wonder Woman's world.

    But anyway, Wonder Woman and Diana are not separate identities for her. People know her as both. If, for some reason, someone knew her only as the Diana who lives in London and goes clubbing and has a favorite breakfast spot, I don't think she'd necessarily think that that person knew her better than someone who knew her heroism--her passion and conviction--but did not know her by the name Diana.

    Thats Clark. Unless we are calling my underpants a mask.

    I was using "you" in its informal universal sense, as in "In a certain sense, the real self is the self in which one is not masked." I promise that I was not thinking of your underpants.

    Her comments to Strife show her generally low opinion of gods. I dont think she would like being called one.
    Again, note the smiley face. But it doesn't really bother me that she doesn't correct him; she is part goddess, and it might not feel like the moment to make a correction. Plus, Diana knows that there is good even in the gods; she sees the good in everyone.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-27-2012 at 06:48 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I wasn't entirely serious when I mentioned the end of #3 in this context. Hence the smiley face. The real point is that seeing Clark as the disguise doesn't mean she thinks that Superman is his legal name or the name his parents gave him. It just means that she sees Superman as his authentic self, defined by his actions and requiring no mask--which, from a certain perspective, is kind of true. Superman says himselfin #15 that he decided that it was as Clark, not Superman, that he would wear a "mask" (the glasses). (It's also wrong, from perspectives Diana didn't have--she didn't know, for example, the degree to which Clark is a hero as a journalist, as seen in Action.)

    But in answer to your question, yes, gods do address her as Wonder Woman, just as they address each other by their functions or domains interchangeably with names. (I'm not sure whether you consider the speech of gods to automatically outside common parlance--but there aren't very many mortals in the book to go by.) Certainly, Diana is a more personal, less formal name, and so Diana tells her to Zola to call her that. But at the same time, it's when Zola recognizes her as Wonder Woman that she begins to realize she can trust her. Zola trusts Wonder Woman because of her known heroism, not because of her name.Maybe names don't matter as much as actions in Wonder Woman's world.

    But anyway, Wonder Woman and Diana are not separate identities for her. People know her as both. If, for some reason, someone knew her only as the Diana who lives in London and goes clubbing and has a favorite breakfast spot, I don't think she'd necessarily think that that person knew her better than someone who knew her heroism--her passion and conviction--but did not know her by the name Diana.
    I think this reflects a common mistake with Wonder Woman, that since she is a champion of truth she is all on the surface and has no secrets. Being honest does not mean a complete lack of privacy. Being a hero is only one aspect of Diana as being a teacher is only one aspect of myself. There are common characterstics that I carry into my role as teacher and parent but they are markedly different. In fact teacher is a role I play, and some people have found me to be very different when I am not in 'teacher-mode'.

    So no, I disagree - if you have only seen Diana 'at work' then you dont really know her whole story, since you have only seen her in that situation. Just because everyone knows her name is Diana does not mean everyone knows who Diana is.

    Speaking of masks - honestly, who doesnt wear them? There are very few people most are completely honest and open with. I suspect that is one thing Clark is lonely for. But most of the time people keep something back. One reason I wouldn't want that lasso within a hundred feet of me, no matter who was carrying it.

    I was using "you" in its informal universal sense, as in "In a certain sense, the real self is the self in which one is not masked." I promise that I was not thinking of your underpants.
    As I said, most people are not comfortable being completely open and honest.



    Again, note the smiley face. But it doesn't really bother me that she doesn't correct him; she is part goddess, and it might not feel like the moment to make a correction. Plus, Diana knows that there is good even in the gods; she sees the good in everyone.
    The point remains she apparently thought that in issue #3, but it didnt stop her pointing out to strife that among Amazons the word "god" is a synonym for "dick".
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  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think this reflects a common mistake with Wonder Woman, that since she is a champion of truth she is all on the surface and has no secrets. Being honest does not mean a complete lack of privacy. Being a hero is only one aspect of Diana as being a teacher is only one aspect of myself. There are common characterstics that I carry into my role as teacher and parent but they are markedly different. In fact teacher is a role I play, and some people have found me to be very different when I am not in 'teacher-mode'.

    So no, I disagree - if you have only seen Diana 'at work' then you dont really know her whole story, since you have only seen her in that situation. Just because everyone knows her name is Diana does not mean everyone knows who Diana is.
    I'm not saying that she has no privacy or that everyone knows her to her core; I'm saying she doesn't have whole separate identities. I, too, am different around my students in some ways; but my students know I'm married, some of them have met my wife, they know the town I live in, and so forth. They may (particularly if they're first-year students) call me "professor," but they know my first name. I think, though, that some of my students who call me professor know me better than some acquaintances who call me by first name--because my students have seen me teaching, which is something I'm passionate about, so they've seen "the real me" in way that people who just run into me in the grocery store or at the post office have not. (Well, maybe the grocery store--I'm pretty passionate about picking out delicious food to eat.)

    Speaking of masks - honestly, who doesnt wear them? There are very few people most are completely honest and open with. I suspect that is one thing Clark is lonely for. But most of the time people keep something back. One reason I wouldn't want that lasso within a hundred feet of me, no matter who was carrying it.
    I don't disagree with that. But Clark wears a more literal mask (the glasses) than Superman does. And think about it from Diana's perspective. TO HER, the hero who has fought at her side is real. That's the person she knows. So it seems to her that Clark the disguise. As she gets to know more about the work Clark does and his history and relationships. that may change; she may see Superman and Clark as equally "real" identities.

    The point remains she apparently thought that in issue #3, but it didnt stop her pointing out to strife that among Amazons the word "god" is a synonym for "dick".
    Sure, but the context was a little different. She was focused, at that moment in #3, on the dickishness (and childishness) of gods. She knows Clark doesn't mean "goddess" in that way, and it's not necessarily the moment to tell him "I don't like to be called that." Besides, based on the same conversation, it sounds like he already knows something about what a handful her "extended family" can be.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    She knows Clark doesn't mean "goddess" in that way, and it's not necessarily the moment to tell him "I don't like to be called that." Besides, based on the same conversation, it sounds like he already knows something about what a handful her "extended family" can be.
    Also, within the context of a date, it was a cute comment that (if the tidal wave didn't just hit) could've led to a really sweet (if not shmaltzy) complement:

    Diana: "I'm a Demi-Goddess, Clark, not a Goddess."
    Clark: "Oh sorry, I forget. You always seem like what a Goddess should be. At least to me."

    I''ve never been a Johns' fan. His writing, plotting, and characterization is pedestrian at best. But he was clearly going for light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek, romantic, comic-booky, fun. As such, inter-title consistency, 'real world' logic, etc. isn't what he was going for or who they are aiming this for (fans who want such things).

    It's a big dumb superhero blockbuster comic featuring a budding romance between two famous A-list heroes who don't wear masks. Why are people expecting deep characterization, flawless plausibility, and great insight into proper relationship dynamics?

    It's Geoff Johns under the 'leadership' of Dan Didio trying to garner publicity and sales for the never-ending serials of a dwindling market - isn't that enough of a 'broadcast' as to how this was going to manifest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Sure, but the context was a little different. She was focused, at that moment in #3, on the dickishness (and childishness) of gods. She knows Clark doesn't mean "goddess" in that way, and it's not necessarily the moment to tell him "I don't like to be called that."
    I think the reason is it would take away space from Clark explaining stuff to her. And if somebody called somebody from Scotland Irish, or from Canada American, I notice they tend to correct straight away.

    I agree with Capt Magellan. That was actually a chance for Diana to have some equal play Instead of it being all about Clark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    ... Speaking of masks - honestly, who doesnt wear them? There are very few people most are completely honest and open with. I suspect that is one thing Clark is lonely for. But most of the time people keep something back. ...
    On this, I tend to agree more with Slvn. Sure, we don't share everything with everyone - but that's a far cry from living 2 very different lives (eg, Clark Kent/Superman), and even more so for a "Diana Prince," as "Diana Prince" was a complete fabrication.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    ... One reason I wouldn't want that lasso within a hundred feet of me, no matter who was carrying it...
    One reason I like the lasso. It shouldn't be something just anyone can handle, imo; it should take someone extraordinary.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... Sure, but the context was a little different. She was focused, at that moment in #3, on the dickishness (and childishness) of gods. She knows Clark doesn't mean "goddess" in that way, and it's not necessarily the moment to tell him "I don't like to be called that." Besides, based on the same conversation, it sounds like he already knows something about what a handful her "extended family" can be.
    On this, I tend to agree more with Brett. You have pointed out in the past how, throughout Azzarello's story, Diana identifies herself much more with Mom's side of the family tree. And given that Clark has heard some stories of her "extended family," I'd think he would be smart enough to not lump her in among them, well-intended or not.

    So, for me, it's yet another scene that Johns didn't really think it through and just rushed it out the door.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptMagellan View Post
    ... It's a big dumb superhero blockbuster comic ...
    I get that, I'd just like a little less dumb, please. I know it's Johns and DiDio in charge, but (in my book), it's still lackluster and sub-par even for them. I think JL deserves better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think the reason is it would take away space from Clark explaining stuff to her. And if somebody called somebody from Scotland Irish, or from Canada American, I notice they tend to correct straight away.

    I agree with Capt Magellan. That was actually a chance for Diana to have some equal play Instead of it being all about Clark.
    I'm starting to think that all these details that could/should be worked into a dinner-table conversation are probably better left unspoken. At today's decompression ratio in comics it could've taken up the whole issue. As far as there being a balance otherwise, it's a losing battle. Superman will ALWAYS overshadow Diana. He's basically always in the foreground artistically and focus-wise. Wonder Woman is being spotlighted lately, but I think that will die down soon enough.

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