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  1. #196
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    In the previous continuity, there were a couple times when we saw Superman and Wonder Woman do combat training/sparring, and in my head I always figured Wonder Woman was doing more of the instruction, and Superman was doing more of the learning, just based on the background of the characters. Maybe if another such scene is portrayed, there should be more emphasis on the general flow of information sharing, and that Wonder Woman had more insight to share in this category.

    My point is that I don't feel it's any more insulting to Wonder Woman if Superman suggests she wear glasses and fix her hair than it would be for Wonder Woman to teach Superman the correct way to throw a jab-jab-cross combo or do an armbar. Nobody's better than Superman at secret ID's, just like nobody's better in hand-to-hand combat than Wonder Woman. In fact, I'd be kind of disappointed if there wasn't this kind of symbiosis between some of the classic heroic team-ups.

  2. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    The fact that this is all happening after 5 years is really whats so jarring about this isn't it? ...

    Johns was always bad with her if I recall, seems like thats gonna continue. I really hope its BA's version of Diana that sticks and not John's.
    Nice post, T.M. Anthony. It's kind of funny, if I mentally white-out the "5 years later," it reads better. Not great, but better.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    The fact that this is all happening after 5 years is really whats so jarring about this isn't it? ...
    Yeah, Johns and WW are not the best match, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    ... And, with respect to Gael, I think Diana came to this conclusion herself in the Heinberg run. I could be wrong, but my impression was that Bruce just helped her craft the identity based on her own decision to create one. And then Clark chipped in with the glasses [which I actually thought was a nice touch].
    Hey old man, your memory is going. Read Heinberg's issue #2 again. She never asks Bruce for help, he just gives her the ID, the job and the invisible jet.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  3. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    In the previous continuity, there were a couple times when we saw Superman and Wonder Woman do combat training/sparring, and in my head I always figured Wonder Woman was doing more of the instruction, and Superman was doing more of the learning, just based on the background of the characters. Maybe if another such scene is portrayed, there should be more emphasis on the general flow of information sharing, and that Wonder Woman had more insight to share in this category.

    My point is that I don't feel it's any more insulting to Wonder Woman if Superman suggests she wear glasses and fix her hair than it would be for Wonder Woman to teach Superman the correct way to throw a jab-jab-cross combo or do an armbar. Nobody's better than Superman at secret ID's, just like nobody's better in hand-to-hand combat than Wonder Woman. In fact, I'd be kind of disappointed if there wasn't this kind of symbiosis between some of the classic heroic team-ups.
    I like your post here, DochaDocha, and agree with the sentiment. However, the problem is that, when it comes to WW, in my experience, the "general flow of information sharing" is a one way street. True, they have shown WW sparring with Supes (and Bats), but they don't do so in a way that demonstrates that Diana is their superior - that somehow seems to get left out. They don't even let Diana be the field commander, even though it makes a lot of sense since she grew up amid an army and was groomed to lead them.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  4. #199
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I like your post here, DochaDocha, and agree with the sentiment. However, the problem is that, when it comes to WW, in my experience, the "general flow of information sharing" is a one way street. True, they have shown WW sparring with Supes (and Bats), but they don't do so in a way that demonstrates that Diana is their superior - that somehow seems to get left out. They don't even let Diana be the field commander, even though it makes a lot of sense since she grew up amid an army and was groomed to lead them.
    I'm fairly sure there was a Wonder Woman issue when Superman thought he had her pinned and was kind of gloating about it, and then she flipped him off her, leaving Supes all embarrassed. So in my mind, that tells me Wonder Woman had a few tricks up her sleeve that Superman didn't know about, i.e. she's simply more knowledgeable about hand-to-hand fighting technique than he is.

    As far as field commander, well, I guess Batman needs something to do... [/sarcasm]

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    Writers forgetting details about the character they´re writting is not somethign unheard of.

    I mean, how many times have they forgotten the fact that she has communion with animals or worst yet, that she walks around with the world's best lie detector attached at her hip.
    Theres also the things that most writers tend to ignore because it's not important to the story they are telling. Gail only mentioned the communication with animals in a scene that had nothing to do with anything.
    For my money, I'd rather have a story that's well told rather than a checklist they have to add.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Theres also the things that most writers tend to ignore because it's not important to the story they are telling. Gail only mentioned the communication with animals in a scene that had nothing to do with anything.
    For my money, I'd rather have a story that's well told rather than a checklist they have to add.
    It´s not a checklist, it´s a matter of a writer doing his or her research.
    Forgetting that Diana has a magic lasso of truth is akin to a writer making Superman buy a plane ticket all the way from NY to LA because he forgot Superman can fly.

  7. #202
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I do so love how often comic fans repeat this as if it's some sort of scientific fact. But it's comics, where having a secret ID is like asking to be attacked. Using just the movies (for now): Clark has a secret ID yet Zod still attacks the Daily Planet and takes Lois hostage. Bruce has a secret ID yet they still attack his home and Rachael still dies. How often did MJ get attacked inspite of Pete's secret? On the other hand, Tony is out and proud, while Pepper is alive and smiling.

    So, Brett, you are a science teacher, correct? Then I ask you, using only comics and comic-related material (eg, movies), show me the EVIDENCE that having a secret ID actually protects anyone? For starters, how many major superheroes with a secret ID have NOT had their loved ones attacked?

    Like I said earlier, they are attacked as often as the creators (or editors) want them attacked, with or without a secret ID. Am I right or am I right?
    Has the Joker raped Alfred to death? There is your answer.

    If we want to get meta-textual, then yes the actions of the villains are totally within the hands of the writers.

    However, in terms of the character of the heroes then putting people around you in needless danger by announcing to all your enemies who are the ones you care about most is not being heroic. Its irrespsonsible and selfish. Tony Stark gets a pass at the end of Iron Man because he doesn't have a host of deadly adversaries gunning for him. If Superman did the same thing now...

    But rather than my waffle on I will pass it over someone with a bit more... gravitas? Since Superman features so prominently in this discussion let us enlist help from his screen debut. You can hear the wisdom I refer to starting at 5 minutes and through to 7 minutes.

    Last edited by brettc1; 12-24-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    It´s not a checklist, it´s a matter of a writer doing his or her research.
    Forgetting that Diana has a magic lasso of truth is akin to a writer making Superman buy a plane ticket all the way from NY to LA because he forgot Superman can fly.
    Think you are blowing things out proportion with comparing communicating with animals and beauty with the Lasso.

  9. #204
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Hey old man, your memory is going. Read Heinberg's issue #2 again. She never asks Bruce for help, he just gives her the ID, the job and the invisible jet.
    Hence the caveat to my statement. I feat the affect of your incessant prattling is finally beginning to show.

    However, it does turn out she didnt need the borrowed invisible jet knock-off. The real one was off somewhere and reappeared in her fight with the demon lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Think you are blowing things out proportion with comparing communicating with animals and beauty with the Lasso.
    Gail did indeed use the power of being able to attune empathically with animals when the Megaladon swallowed the booby-trapped lasso and then returned it to her when she needed it. Previously she had used it in Sacrifice, and more than once in the Jimenez run.
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-24-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Think you are blowing things out proportion with comparing communicating with animals and beauty with the Lasso.
    Why?

    You think writers never forgot she has a magic lasso of truth?

  11. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Has the Joker raped Alfred to death? There is your answer.
    So, your version of evidence is now to avoid the question? Not very scientific of you. ;) Also, last I heard via skimming the spoiler threads, Joker currently had Alfred hostage. Hopefully, DC won't feel the need for your suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    However, in terms of the character of the heroes then putting people around you in needless danger by announcing to all your enemies who are the ones you care about most is not being heroic. Its irrespsonsible and selfish. Tony Stark gets a pass at the end of Iron Man because he doesn't have a host of deadly adversaries gunning for him. If Superman did the same thing now...
    So, every police officer, military, judge, lawyer, politician, government worker, etc. that doesn't have a secret ID is now "irresponsible and selfish"? Real people battle real bad guys all the time WITHOUT ever having the benefit of a pair of glasses fooling everyone. And they are heroes, in their own way.

    True, in special cases, we allow for a few law enforcement and military to hide their ID (though, there is always someone that knows who they are, and they are held accountable). But, fact is, the vast majority of them do NOT get to hide even from those they fight against. And everytime a cop arrests someone, they risk retaliation.

    This is where Johns failed (imo) writing the Steve-Diana break-up. BIG fail. Steve is in harm's way ANYWAY. This Diana is such a dunce.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Hence the caveat to my statement.
    There is no "could;" you ARE wrong. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    However, it does turn out she didnt need the borrowed invisible jet knock-off. The real one was off somewhere and reappeared in her fight with the demon lord.
    Only because Gail agreed with Gaelforce (and others) that Diana's invisible jet should not come from Batman. Thank you, Gail.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2012 at 04:08 PM.
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  12. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I'm fairly sure there was a Wonder Woman issue when Superman thought he had her pinned and was kind of gloating about it, and then she flipped him off her, leaving Supes all embarrassed. So in my mind, that tells me Wonder Woman had a few tricks up her sleeve that Superman didn't know about, i.e. she's simply more knowledgeable about hand-to-hand fighting technique than he is.
    Yeah, they do show her sparring, and at times fighting, with the boys. They even give her good moments where she's on top or whatever. But, I don't recall them actually having her instruct the boys in pretty much ANYTHING. Occasionally, they'll have characters talk about it - eg, Bats saying Diana is quicker than Clark or that Diana is the best hand-to-hand fighter - but, typically, it's just a line here or there.

    I think it's this lack of balance that's missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    As far as field commander, well, I guess Batman needs something to do... [/sarcasm]
    I know you were being sarcastic - still, I do get the "Batman needs something to do" argument (with all info. Cyborg around, there's even less for Bats to do these day). I just think it's a weak argument, and doesn't fit all the characters all that well. But, I know, he's popular, so we have to give him lots of love or something. (note: I like Bats. A lot. But, similar to Wolverine and others, I do think writers over-write him at times to play to the fanboy crowd, and sell comics.)
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  13. #208
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    So, your version of evidence is now to avoid the question? Not very scientific of you. ;) Also, last I heard via the spoiler threads, Joker currently had Alfred hostage. Hopefully, DC won't feel the need for your suggestion.
    Is Alfred a hostage because the Joker knows Bruce Wayne is Batman? Seems unlikely.

    I didnt avoid the question, you just didnt like how I my answer shut you down But if you want actual evidence the other way, go back and read what happens to the kids at Cassie's high school because she gave up having a secret identity.


    So, every police officer, military, judge, lawyer, politician, government worker, etc. that doesn't have a secret ID is now "irresponsible and selfish"? Real people battle real bad guys all the time WITHOUT ever having the benefit of a pair of glasses fooling everyone. And they are heroes, in their own way.

    True, in special cases, we allow for a few law enforcement and military to hide their ID (though, there is always someone that knows who they are, and they are held accountable). But, the vast majority of them do NOT get to hide even from those they fight against.
    First, these people work in an establishment with the human resources to provide a level of protection that one person in a cape cannot on most occasions. Secondly, as part of an law enforcement organization it is often not effective to target these people because you will simply have someone else step in to do the job. Third, we see in places like Gotham that the vulnerabilty of their loved ones has indeed left some dedicated law enforcement officers parlysed, necessitating a masked vigilante with no such vulnerablities to help out. And finally. you are comparing drive by thugs with Deathstroke the Terminator.
    Only because Gail agreed with Gaelforce (and others) that Diana's invisible jet should not come from Batman. Thank you, Gail.
    But the other jets did stay in service and were used by the DMA. Diana Prince using Wonder Woman's high tech alien plane to get around would, even you must admit, but a bit of a give-away.
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  14. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Is Alfred a hostage because the Joker knows Bruce Wayne is Batman? Seems unlikely.
    I haven't read it - but, let's be honest - Joker attacking Alfred shows that having ANYONE around is not safe. Loved ones get attacked all the time. Bruce having a secret didn't stop that. WHY? Because secret or no, the author always finds a way to attack the loved ones. So, is it selfish to have Alfred around at all given that we know he's in danger?

    eta - And since we are debating the "selfishness" of a secret ID, which is more selfish, in your view: a) Not have a secret ID, which would allow for folks like Steve to know you and make an informed choice in accepting the possible danger in associating with you, or b) Have a secret ID, which does NOT allow for the folks around you (loved ones, co-workers, etc) to make an informed choice regarding the dangers of being near you?

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I didnt avoid the question, you just didnt like how I my answer shut you down
    Do I look shut down to anyone? Nope. Just you. I asked for evidence. Scientific evidence requires a statistically significant pattern, not an example or two. Let me put it this way - if someone were to ask you for evidence linking smoking to cancer, would you find one person who smokes and doesn't have cancer and say, "See, smoking doesn't cause cancer!"? I know you love to debate, but I thought you liked science, too. Don't let your love of one over-ride the other. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    But if you want actual evidence the other way, go back and read what happens to the kids at Cassie's high school because she gave up having a secret identity.
    That's an example, sure, but we both know they were attacked because the author wanted to attack them. It's a comics trope (over-relied on, if you ask me). Secret or no, loved ones get attacked in comics. There's no pattern that shows a secret ID is actually effective. It may sound logical to have one, but it won't work because the real bad guy pulling the strings (the creative team) already knows the secret. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    First, these people work in an establishment with the human resources to provide a level of protection that one person in a cape cannot on most occasions. Secondly, as part of an law enforcement organization it is often not effective to target these people because you will simply have someone else step in to do the job. Third, we see in places like Gotham that the vulnerabilty of their loved ones has indeed left some dedicated law enforcement officers parlysed, necessitating a masked vigilante with no such vulnerablities to help out. And finally. you are comparing drive by thugs with Deathstroke the Terminator.
    First, if we are to compare the superheroes to our crime fighters, then why can't we compare the super-baddies to our criminals? Real people fight some really bad folks.

    So, it's not effective to target a cop's family because other cops would step up and hunt you down, but attacking the loved ones of superheroes makes so much sense? Because having the entire Justice League hunting you down with a personal vedetta is such a good idea? When has attacking a superheroes loved ones ever stopped the hero? One of the few good parts of Identity Crisis was the other criminals being pissed that someone had made things personal by attacking the League's family members.

    eta - This is why I think it's a logical fail and over-used crutch for so many comic stories to be about the bad guy attacking the loved ones so often. Can't the be a little more creative and come up with something we haven't seen in comics 15 times a week?

    eta - I haven't read the books, but have you seen the moves "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" and "The Girl that Played with Fire"? If so, which do you think is better?

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Diana Prince using Wonder Woman's high tech alien plane to get around would, even you must admit, but a bit of a give-away.
    Well, if there's no Diana Prince, there's no worrying about give-aways.

    eta - You're ahead of me in time, so have a Merry Christmas, good sir. Thanks for the gift of debate. :)
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-24-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Pretty much agree with all of this. The thing about the Clark helping with the identity though is that they only JUST found out he was someone else besides Superman. Before that only Bruce [and apparently Cyborg] knew.
    According to Action #10, they found out from Batman roughly 5 years ago that Superman is a reporter in his secret ID. Oddly enough, according to JL #10, they find out the same thing, from Cyborg, in the present day. I assume that this was just bad coordination--but who knows? Maybe their memories were edited (by J'onn? Zatanna?) sometime in between.

    But when did we hear that they didn't guess until recently that he has a secret ID at all? I don't see that in JL 10; I just see surprise that he's a reporter.

    Which is just bizaare. You work with someone on a team of superheroes for 5 years and you never question who they really are. Because Superman is not even a personal name, that's obvious.
    Well, from Wonder Woman's point of view, it's probably about as good a name as "War" or "Sun." :) And other things, like their professions, might matter less to a person from her culture.

    As Batman says at the end of the first arc, the Leaguers aren't necessarily friends and most of them don't know each other well or share their secrets, but they believe they need to be allies and to be seen as friends for the sake of a world imperiled and frightened by all the superhumans and extraordinary phenomena that are suddenly appearing.

    And Wonder Woman evidently believes she know what she needs to know about them. In Action #10, when Batman and Superman are getting touchy about being a billionaire playboy and a snoopy reporter. She asks, "Doet is matter what disguises you wear to walk in this world? We all want to make it better." Their civilian names and professions aren't a big deal to her. She's seen what matters, which is their dedication to saving the world.

    But honestly, is it THAT much of a hard leap of logic that you can get people to act different around you by looking different? If the problem is "People treat me like Wonder Woman, not Diana," then the obvious solution is to disguise the fact you are Wonder Woman.
    I'm not sure that this was the problem, from Diana's point of view. She worried that she's a threat to fragile mortals with whom she gets close, and that she doesn't understand relationships in this world and doesn't know whom not to trust. Superman's answer to that question has to do with secret IDs, but we don't know that this is the right answer for Diana.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-24-2012 at 07:31 PM.

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