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  1. #151
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    Some WW fans can't handle anyone giving Diana suggestions... I guess it's good some fans are not so insecure we do not see a woman character helping a man as an attack on his gender therefore a man helping a woman is simply what it is....done with good intentions.
    thepenguin,

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  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I don't think I failed to mention that:
    You are correct, Slvn - my reply about one post failed to take into account your earlier post. Apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Which basics do you mean? Diana understands that Hal is an ass; that seems pretty basic to his character as Johns has been writing him in this book. :)

    She didn't understand how and why Clark uses his secret identity because he hadn't shared that with her until now. It is a secret identity, after all.
    I know this is superhero comics, and that Johns (and most of the industry) loves to paint by trope over and over again. But these 7 are in the trenches together, life-and-death save multiple worlds, over and over again, and they don't have a simple conversation about "secret Idenities" until 5 YEARS later? I find that weak, very weak (maybe I'm just getting tired of overused poorly done super gimmicks). Their characterization now is much more of a Year 1, imo. Poor planning (again) by DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I'd prefer that the JL Wonder Woman be less sword happy, but that's not an acculturation issue so much as a general characterization issue.
    Agreed. I want more lasso. They get paid to be creative, no? So, where's the creative?

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I do think it would be nice to show more clearly that she understands teamwork and leadership. After all, why wouldn't she? The Amazons probably have a more collectivist culture than ours, and she has been raised to lead their "team." But I think her initial problems with teamwork in the last couple of issues have less to do with cultural difference and more to do with her sense of personal responsibility for what has happened to her friends, and also with her questions about how much she can share her responsibilities with mortals.
    The teamwork lecture was terrible. Diana would know teamwork much better than most (if not all) of them. It also served (as MissLane has pointed out) to foster the overall feeling of imbalance here. It's not simply that one moment is bad, it's the trend and compounding effect that WW doesn't really know much.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-21-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    ... I guess it's good some fans are not so insecure we do not see a woman character helping a man as an attack on his gender therefore a man helping a woman is simply what it is....done with good intentions...
    YAY for jumping to assumptions.

    Let me use a couple of other examples to clarify my position. First, Rucka had Superman read over and offer suggestions regarding Diana's book. She trusted him enough and valued his opinion, so she wanted to hear his thoughts. Later, Batman assisted with a murder investigation, lending his detective skills. I liked both.

    During Marvel's Civil War time, Iron Man gives Spider-Man a new spidey-suit. Fun for a short-term story. However, I would not want (and I suspect many a Spidey-fan would agree with me) to have a rebooted Spider-Man get his web-shoots from Iron Man. Spider-Man's story needs to be Spider-Man's story, and the primary aspects of that story should come from Spider-Man's story, not generic hand-me downs.

    We don't need to see Kal explaining to Bruce how to use a cape just because Superman had one first.

    And no need for projecting your assumed gender issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    ... Clark and Diana are just starting a new relationship and you all expect miracles in a few panels. If after a year we see nothing of what you expect fine but it's really unfair to come now and pan something we have not had time to see...
    I see no good reason why I should have to wait a year for BALANCE in a relationship. Even good first dates have balance in the conversation. This is just weak and dull writing by trope, due, in part, to Johns' lack of skill in writing WW. I'm not against the idea of a WW-SM relationship, I just don't think Johns has written it very well (eg, I will now monologue to you for the reader). Honestly, it feels rushed, like Johns has too much on his plate (here, WW isn't the only character I think Johns hasn't written well in JL, she's just the one I care about most; plus, Johns hasn't done all that well with her in the past).
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-22-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    I know this is superhero comics, and that Johns (and most of the industry) loves to paint by trope over and over again. But these 7 are in the trenches together, life-and-death save multiple worlds, over and over again, and they don't have a simple conversation about "secret Idenities" until 5 YEARS later? I find that weak, very weak (maybe I'm just getting tired of overused poorly done super gimmicks). Their characterization now is much more of a Year 1, imo. Poor planning (again) by DC.
    Like you, I'm not one who thinks that "because that's the way other superhero comics have done it" is, in itself, a very compelling reason. So what I'm about to say is more of an interesting (I hope) aside than an argument. But, it took the pre-crisis league a long time to trust each other with their secret IDs. When they have to share them in JLA #19, Superman gives them all "amnesium" so that they can forget. (And JLA #1 wasn't presented as their first adventure, so they might have been a team for a long time by issue #19.) Here's an interesting page on how they found out each others' secret IDs over time:


    http://www.cosmicteams.com/jla/_docs/awdc_ids.html

    In the current continuity, I think Johns and others have tried to put emphasis on how new the world of superheros and how freaked out everybody has been by it. In that context, I don't find it TOO strange that JL members haven't all shared their secrets with each other. They're making this up as they go along, and they're not really sure when to share IDs. In a way, respecting each others' privacy may be one of the ways they (with the exception of Batman and, involuntarily, Cyborg) show mutual respect and trust.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-21-2012 at 01:14 PM.

  5. #155
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Huh. Does it involve twirling a rope?
    Yes. 10 chars
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  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Like you, I'm not one who thinks that "because that's the way other superhero comics have done it" is, in itself, a very compelling reason. So what I'm about to say is more of an interesting (I hope) aside than an argument...
    Can always count on you for the optimistic devil's advocate. "Interesting asides" and all, it can make it difficult for me to feel like I really understand your own view. In other words, it's hard to see what's your own view, and what is just an "interesting aside" for the sake of offering a counter point view.

    Maybe it's just my expectations here, but isn't the point of a reboot to freshen things up a bit? Regurgitating the basic "this is the way we typically do it" is not fresh.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    In the current continuity, I think Johns and others have tried to put emphasis on how new the world of superheros and how freaked out everybody has been by it. In that context, I don't find it TOO strange that JL members haven't all shared their secrets with each other. They're making this up as they go along, and they're not really sure when to share IDs. In a way, respecting each others' privacy may be one of the ways they (with the exception of Batman and, involuntarily, Cyborg) show mutual respect and trust.
    I understand the "respect your secrets" trope. But 5 years in close, mutually dependant combat together is a long time to not talk. (imo)The biggest mistake in Johns' writing on JL, thus far, is jumping ahead five years (that along with too much monologuing 'tell' with not enough 'show'). If he wants to write them behaving like a Year 1, then just have this be a Year 1.

    To clarify, my complaints about the writing on JL is not that it's so bad I'm offended or anything. It's just disappointing, clunky and rather dull. I expect better for JL, and I expect better by Johns. Similar to my complaints about JMS's WW, I know he can do better because I've read better by him.
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  7. #157
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Not too sure how I feel about the lasso-change thing. On the one hand it's a nice nod to old continuity. On the other it feels like another example where JL contradicts what Azz is doing with Diana in her own title. I like that Azz and Chiang have Diana doing this thing where she just wears normal clothes over her costume and how she turns the tiara into a head band. It's simple, it's fun and - as far as I’m aware - it's uniquely hers.

    But then I haven't read JL yet and might change my mind when I do.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Can always count on you for the optimistic devil's advocate. "Interesting asides" and all, it can make it difficult for me to feel like I really understand your own view. In other words, it's hard to see what's your own view, and what is just an "interesting aside" for the sake of offering a counter point view.

    Maybe it's just my expectations here, but isn't the point of a reboot to freshen things up a bit? Regurgitating the basic "this is the way we typically do it" is not fresh.



    I understand the "respect your secrets" trope. But 5 years in close, mutually dependant combat together is a long time to not talk. (imo)The biggest mistake in Johns' writing on JL, thus far, is jumping ahead five years (that along with too much monologuing 'tell' with not enough 'show'). If he wants to write them behaving like a Year 1, then just have this be a Year 1.

    To clarify, my complaints about the writing on JL is not that it's so bad I'm offended or anything. It's just disappointing, clunky and rather dull. I expect better for JL, and I expect better by Johns. Similar to my complaints about JMS's WW, I know he can do better because I've read better by him.
    I guess my expectations weren't as high. Johns is a good superhero writer, but he doesn't strike me as someone to really push the borders of the genre in what for me would be exciting ways (like, say, Azzarello seems to be doing) and the company's flagship title didn't seem like a place where that would be done anyway. (Of course, I haven't read JL 15 yet, and I've seen one reviewer say that this issue is different, so we'll see.) It hasn't been Johns' best work so far, but it's not outside the range of what I would expect from him.

    I just honestly can't get worked up about an expected difference in group dynamics between a "year one" book and a "year five" book. I don't think group dynamics develop on that regular a schedule. After all, your idea that comrades in arms will quickly bond and reveal all their secrets to each other would be another "trope" or cliché. Sometimes it happens, but I'm sure that there have been soldiers under fire who have kept secrets from each other about their sexuality, for instance, or their religion and ethnicity, or whatever the hot button topics of the moment may have been. That's different, of course, but if Clark thought his friend's lives were at stake depending on how well he kept his secret, than I can see him keeping it even from his comrades at arms. And sometimes an organization can bond well at first, differences can kept swept under the rug, and then fault lines can emerge later on as things get real; that seems to have been what happened when Steve got kidnapped.

  9. #159
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I still love the idea behind of a character coming from a world outside our own who is diminished if someone teaches or shows her anything. Like she should arrive in America knowing exactly how cars work, how many orgasm the modern woman has, and what information a credit card company needs to complete an application. Because if she's helped then dammit, she should figure it out herself. Because that's the idealized female hero.
    Batman had to learn how to be Batman. He had help. From characters in Batman.

    Superman and Green Lantern had to learn how to be Superman and Green Lantern. And they had helsp - from characters in Superman and Green Lantnern.

    Aquaman. Flash. Pattern repeats.

    And then there is Wonder Woman.

    If there is one thing - ONE thing - that Wonder Woman should be able to do without being taught as part of our society, its make friends. Its form relationships. Its engage with people and find allies and companions who will help her to learn about our world.

    But the reason she is learning from Clark is that apparently this Wonder Woman is a bit of an outcast. She doesnt know how to make a life for herself outside of her tights, despite what happens in her own book.

    Weird.
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  10. #160
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Just recently (well, not recently, in the five years ago setting, but in a recent issue), Bruce helped Superman remember that Clark was just as important side of him as Superman was during a time of crisis in which Superman grudgingly was about to drop his Clark identity altogether. One could argue that Superman should have been able to come to that conclusion on his own. But they decided to have Batman make a guest appearance in the role of friend (well okay, he did also put a tracker on Clark's cape at the end but this is Bruce). And it worked great.

    The point I'm trying to make is that its not an automatic slap in the face to a character nor a negative event when another character outside their own title(s) appear every now and again to help out. I understand we're just coming off a reality in which this idea was totally run into the ground in regards to Wonder Woman and she was having entire aspects of her mythos crafted by another hero, but I just don't see anything near that extreme going on here. This is the sort of things between heroes and friends that I welcome.

  11. #161
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is that its not an automatic slap in the face to a character nor a negative event when another character outside their own title(s) appear every now and again to help out. I understand we're just coming off a reality in which this idea was totally run into the ground in regards to Wonder Woman and she was having entire aspects of her mythos crafted by another hero, but I just don't see anything near that extreme going on here. This is the sort of things between heroes and friends that I welcome.
    As someone who has expressed concern over the secret identity issue in the upcoming issue of Justice League, it has consistently been my position that the problem isn't fellow heroes helping or supporting each other but rather that the Clark/Diana dynamic has been consistently portrayed as Clark helping Diana more than she is helping him. Clark helping Diana once is fine, especially with something like a secret identity. However, the fact that he seems to have been oddly prepared for the conversation, and the fact that this is essentially the third time Clark has supported and encouraged Diana since their courtship began, is what is becoming troubling. Heroes helping each other out from time to time is wonderful and welcomed, but one male hero helping one female hero out repeatedly and in consecutive issues is not particularly appealing to me.

  12. #162
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    As someone who has expressed concern over the secret identity issue in the upcoming issue of Justice League, it has consistently been my position that the problem isn't fellow heroes helping or supporting each other but rather that the Clark/Diana dynamic has been consistently portrayed as Clark helping Diana more than she is helping him. Clark helping Diana once is fine, especially with something like a secret identity. However, the fact that he seems to have been oddly prepared for the conversation, and the fact that this is essentially the third time Clark has supported and encouraged Diana since their courtship began, is what is becoming troubling. Heroes helping each other out from time to time is wonderful and welcomed, but one male hero helping one female hero out repeatedly and in consecutive issues is not particularly appealing to me.
    Good point. I think we would like to see Diana helping Clark out with something other than his tongue.
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  13. #163
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    I mean it seems weird. All thought out the pre crisis especially in the golden age. Diana was able to make the secret identity herself. Couldn't Diana just do the same? I would like a story in which she makes the name Diana Prince herself. Also if she able to hidden her costume and her identity and Azz run than she can easily make the identity her on Identity

  14. #164
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    To me, it's not the matter of 'needing help.'

    It's the matter of completely re-writing her origin so that she needs help to do all the things she originally did herself.

    In pre-DCnu in the last re-boot:

    Batman created her secret ID (pre-Crisis she did it herself)
    Batman got her a job as a secret agent (pre-Crisis she did it herself, post-Crisis she got her own job as an Ambassador and author)
    Batman *got her the invisible jet* (the most insulting, imo. Pre-Crisis she *built it her own darned self. Post-Crisis she obtained it on her own)

    Now we have nu-DC, and she, yet again, is being written like a fish out of water (no offense to Aquaman). If Superman now is the one to help her do everything she had once been able to do on her own, it'll be downright insulting to what was once the intelligence of DCs greatest superheroine.

  15. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I guess my expectations weren't as high. Johns is a good superhero writer, but he doesn't strike me as someone to really push the borders of the genre in what for me would be exciting ways ...
    lol It's not like I was expecting some genre breaking masterpiece that would change the world as we know it. I was expecting some above average super-heroics and enjoyable characterization / interaction (something at least on par with Blackest Night). Thus far, it's rather ... meh. JL should not be meh. But you're right that this is within Johns' range, the bottom half.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... After all, your idea that comrades in arms will quickly bond and reveal all their secrets to each other would be another "trope" or cliché...
    lol I didn't say they'd reveal every deep dark secret, discuss the details every sexual desire, and debate abortion, religion and politcs. I'm talking basic conversation - 'hi, what's your name?' 'what do you do for a living?' - stuff must of us would chat about to a stranger in a bar. Would you go into battle for 5 YEARS with 6 strangers you know next to nothing about just because they dress in bright colors? The girl that cuts my hair knows more about me than these guys know about each other.

    5 YEARS later and Diana needs Clark to help her go out to eat? Seriously?

    I think we, as comic fans, have become too accustomed to mediocre paint by trope. I want better than that.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-22-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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