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  1. #136
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I think if Diana wants to tell him how she relaxes she should just tell him and not wait for permission.
    I didn't say she would have to wait for permission. Where did you get that idea? I literally just mean that the scenes would be better if they were written as more of an even exchange. Clark talks about unwinding and his outside of Watchtower life, she tells him about her life. You know, like a normal conversation. Kind of like the one I had today with one of my clients. She told me that for Christmas her family opens presents on Christmas Eve and I told her that my father used to do that when he was a kid. It's as you said, she should just tell him about herself. Nowhere did I say she couldn't do just that. Indeed, what I said is that so far Johns hasn't written Diana to do so, when he easily could have, depriving us of a more balanced, give-and-take feel to Superman and Wonder Woman's interplay.

    He goes to the major visual method he uses. If he's dominating the relationship then its because she's allowing him to. Remember, loving submission. She's the one asking for information about him. Apparently he doesn't feel the same lack of information about her.
    It bothers me that she's being so submissive and that Clark isn't interested in learning more about her. Johns barely even lets Diana talk about her own life; he has Clark explain it for her on multiple occasions. Diana has noticeably less dialogue in their scenes together.

    After all, she doesn't play the dual roles he does. She is who she is and now seems to be looking to be more than just herself. I don't think this would even get a notice if it was reversed. Superman going to Diana Prince (instead of Batman) and asking about secret identity and she suggests glasses since they work for her. Sure, why not. Right there the first thing you see. But if ever Diana learns something from a male, she's being disrespected as a female hero.
    It would bother me if it happened with Superman, too. In fact, the situation you described happened on Smallville with Clark and his friend Chloe Sullivan in a scene from the episode "Infamous." Chloe isn't a superhero, but she did tell Clark about a dual identity (and in a later episode credited herself as his inspiration):

    Clark: If you consider complete invasion of privacy a perk. Though there was this one moment right after I told Lois the truth about me. I thought everything would be okay. Thought I could have it all, but I was wrong.
    Chloe: You know, Clark, maybe you can have your cape and wear it, too. Say that Clark Kent, the unassuming journalist, buttoned up in a starched shirt and tie, but then, when he's playing the hero, he...

    Chloe: You know, in every epic tale, there's always one person who believes in the hero first. Someone who helps inspire them to greatness. And maybe it wasn't just a fluke with you. I've been thinking that's my true calling; finding heroes and helping them realize their true potential beyond the reach of Watchtower.


    I had problems with Chloe's role in these instances just as I do now with Clark and Diana. I'll reiterate that Diana learning from Clark isn't, by itself, problematic. It's the accumulation of factors that makes this potentially a step too far. Diana was trained by a man (Ares). She was encouraged to be more of a team player by Superman. This whole process of Superman informing Diana about himself is so he can get her to trust him, which Johns had Superman and Wonder Woman equate with helping Diana trust others and thus her instincts better. The scale is tipped too much on the side of other people, especially men, forming Diana. I'd like to see the scale tip more the other way soon.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-20-2012 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #137
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    But don't you find it as amusing as I do that a character that used to talk about being submissive is criticized for being submissive? To me its a riot when you consider how many posts we see people so upset she's not like she used to be.

  3. #138

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    *applause for MissLane*

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Fair enough. Strike "heritage," replace with "upbringing"--because Superman was brought up as Clark Kent, just as Wonder Woman was brought up as Diana, Princess of the Amazons. For Superman to have to be reminded that the "Clark Kent" identity deserves to live seems to me to be a little like Wonder Woman having to be reminded that she should remain Diana, Princess of the Amazons.
    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    He's just giving her a suggestion and when this was done I don't think Superman fans were so insecure that Diana giving Clark the glasses is belittling any of his heritage or upbringing.
    These are interesting comparisons, but both of you fail to mention the obvious difference - as MissLane pointed out, "The glasses and Clark Kent disguise were already part of Clark and something he'd used for years." In both examples, Bruce and Diana are simply reminding Clark of somthing HE already did HIMSELF. So, it's not as one-sided as lecture Clark in JL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I think if Diana wants to tell him how she relaxes she should just tell him and not wait for permission... If he's dominating the relationship then its because she's allowing him to...
    From my seat, many of your statements seem to really miss the mark strawman style, but these are my favorite. I know this is obvious, but she is fictional. As such, she can't simply speak for herself when she feels like it. So, no, she isn't "allowing" Clark to dominate the relationship - JOHNS IS DOING IT. It's his writing.

    And DC's track record doesn't help my confidence any - Bruce manufacturing a fake ID for Diana (complete with glasses from Clark), and Johns having previously penned that Diana needs to learn humanity (because humanity is all about faking it?).

    Finally (for now), I'd just like to add that, while I am no genius, I have been a "fish-out-of-water" in a non-English speaking country, and it didn't take me 5 YEARS to finally figure out the very basics of the place. Diana asking about hand-holding when she first gets here? That I get. 5 YEARS later, a team that's been in life-and-death situation after situation and doesn't know the basics about each other? Please Johns, stop phoning in this generic garbage. It's weak.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    But don't you find it as amusing as I do that a character that used to talk about being submissive is criticized for being submissive? To me its a riot when you consider how many posts we see people so upset she's not like she used to be.
    And when was she so submissive? When Steve gave her the fake ID? Or when she kept telling Steve she wouldn't marry him?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  5. #140
    French-Canadian Frank Fournier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I just don't think you can say that a substantial amount of time (such as five years) has elapsed since JL 1. Otherwise, how would you fit in developments like the ones I listed in my previous post?
    If only what you listed did happen in at least one year (in comic book time) like a week for Martian Manhunter to be in the JL before he quits, a week for WW to move in London after months of doing whatever wherever with Cheetah, a day for Superman to build and launch the Watchtower, a year for the Congress to deal with ARGUS, the JL, etc. I don't read Team Seven but isn't that story happening before Steve Trevor was with the JL? Anyway... that'd explain better this WW's attitude as still freshly new in man's world. Because otherwise if I was living in a new country for 5 years without making any friends or without understanding the customs of the people around me, then you may call me a not too really sociable person, a not open-minded one or an hermit.

    By the way, nobody answered my question about if Superman is schooling her, then what lessons can he learn from her in the other hand?
    I guess she does have nothing to offer.
    Last edited by Frank Fournier; 12-21-2012 at 09:02 AM.
    ~ One thousand apologies if I'm using broken English. ~

  6. #141
    Senior Member spark627's Avatar
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    Wasn't this supposed to come out on Wednesday? i didn't see it.
    "Of all people, you know who I am...who the world needs me to be. I'm Wonder Woman."

  7. #142
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    Misslane's beef to me seems that Diana is taking Superman away from Lois schooling him? Everyone time someone talks about Diana/Clark in a positive way she drags in Lois. See the ruined JL preview thread on the DC forums.

    Superman had Batman "school' him in Action...such a derogatory term to use between characters who always cared for one another...you know I saw it as a friend who knows what he's talking about who cares for another...offering suggestions...and Clark respects Bruce enough...seeing he is older and more experienced to say, yeah this guy has something to offer.

    Some WW fans can't handle anyone giving Diana suggestions. It's an attack on her femininity and womanhood. How some of you can abide what Azzarello is doing when it's mainly male Gods schooling her? The horror.


    I guess it's good some fans are not so insecure we do not see a woman character helping a man as an attack on his gender therefore a man helping a woman is simply what it is....done with good intentions.

    WW preached at Superman a fair bit pre reboot of all the male heroes he had respect for her opinions and they were best buds but did I see that as some attack on his manhood? Not at all.

    Next time WW tries to "school" any male character with her wisdom we should see if she is really in any position to talk. But you know only humans can school metas apparently.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 12-21-2012 at 09:44 AM.

  8. #143
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    Misslane's beef to me seems that Diana is taking Superman away from Lois schooling him? Everyone time someone talks about Diana/Clark in a positive way she drags in Lois. See the ruined JL preview thread on the DC forums.
    It's curious to me that a Wonder Woman fan like yourself would do something so anti-feminist as to turn this legitimate issue about Wonder Woman's characterization into a cat fight. As you can see, I've yet to mention Lois in these threads in the context you described because she has nothing to do with this topic. You said I dragged in Lois to make this a Diana vs. Lois issue, but I didn't. You did that. The only time I mentioned Lois was to explore the timing of the Clark/Diana relationship. I also said I'm a fan of her character along with Joan of Arc and Jo March. I'm not as much of a "fan" of Wonder Woman, but I do like her as a hero, woman, and role model. It is because I care about strong characterization of all female characters that Diana's writing in Justice League is so frustrating.

    Superman had Batman school him in Action...you know I saw it as a friend who knows what he's talking about who cares for another...offering suggestions...and Clark respects Bruce enough...seeing he is older and more experienced to say, yeah this guy has something to offer.
    For the last time, I'm not against heroes teaching each other, schooling each other, encouraging each other, or helping each other out with ideas and suggestions. What I find problematic in Justice League is Clark is helping and supporting Diana more often than not. It's the imbalance that troubles.

    Some WW fans can't handle anyone giving Diana suggestions. It's an attack on her femininity and womanhood. How some of you can abide what Azzarello is doing when it's mainly male Gods schooling her? The horror.
    I don't mind men giving Diana suggestions, but if more men than women were giving Diana suggestions, and if Diana wasn't written to give back to men as much as they give her, then I would find such a dynamic problematic.

    WW preached at Superman a fair bit pre reboot of all the male heroes he had respect for her opinions and they were best buds but did I see that as some attack on his manhood? Not at all.
    Was the sharing of opinions reciprocal and equal Pre-Flashpoint? Because that would make all the difference.

    Next time WW tries to "school" any male character with her wisdom we should see if she is really in any position to talk.
    I'd love to see Diana give advice and to see her receive it. Again, as long as it's balanced, I'm happy.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-21-2012 at 09:58 AM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    .









    Was the sharing of opinions reciprocal and equal Pre-Flashpoint? Because that would make all the difference.


    Wait have you not read pre Flash point Superman books books? I thought you had. Diana has made appearances in Superman and he has in WW. And let me tell you WW has done her fair share of "schooling"...but I saw it as supporting. But what do I know.

    Clark and Diana are just starting a new relationship and you all expect miracles in a few panels. If after a year we see nothing of what you expect fine but it's really unfair to come now and pan something we have not had time to see. Scott Lobdell see Diana as a natural sounding board for Clark, someone who understands him and what he does...Diggle says he sees them as kindred spirits in a way...how Snyder will approach them we will see. Johns is starting the relationship. It is in baby stages,where they are just finding out intimate details about each other. Come on, let's be real. It is only Azzarello not using Superman but he is ignoring everyone else too. He is using Gods ...many male Gods...to suggest, help and show WW what to do. I don't see that as an attack on her either because many of them have good intentions.

  10. #145
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    SPOILER (but only on the matter of "disguise")

    spoilers:
    http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...04315226_n.jpg
    end of spoilers
    He's not telling her take any id.

    There is a certain er transformation I think old school WW fans will love.
    http://superman-wonderwoman.deviantart.com/ (featuring some of the best superman/wonder woman art )

  11. #146
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    Wait have you not read pre Flash point Superman books books? I thought you had. Diana has made appearances in Superman and he has in WW. And let me tell you WW has done her fair share of "schooling"...but I saw it as supporting. But what do I know.
    I have read many pre-Flashpoint books featuring Superman, but I doubt I have read every single one of them. As someone who might have a clearer recollection of Superman and Wonder Woman's conversations during that time, I assumed you would be in a better position to judge whether the sharing of support and ideas was reciprocal and balanced. I would see schooling and supporting as just fine as long as both were equally given by both parties.

    Clark and Diana are just starting a new relationship and you all expect miracles in a few panels. If after a year we see nothing of what you expect fine but it's really unfair to come now and pan something we have not had time to see.
    I'm not expecting miracles, though. I'm expecting good writing. I have had time to see how the relationship is panning out, and it isn't working for me. My idea of balance isn't six issues worth of Superman supporting Diana and then switching it around.

    Scott Lobdell see Diana as a natural sounding board for Clark, someone who understands him and what he does...Diggle says he sees them as kindred spirits in a way...how Snyder will approach them we will see. Johns is starting the relationship. It is in baby stages,where they are just finding out intimate details about each other. Come on, let's be real. It is only Azzarello not using Superman but he is ignoring everyone else too. He is using Gods ...many male Gods...to suggest, help and show WW what to do. I don't see that as an attack on her either because many of them have good intentions.
    No one, including me, is arguing these helpful men do not have good intentions. I'm fine with Diana learning from men as long as she is also learning from women and giving support back to the men who have helped her in some way. I'm curious how Lobdell and Diggle will write the relationship, although I doubt Diana is going to appear frequently in Superman's books. If they write the relationship better, then that's wonderful. I don't care for Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple (I think they work better as friends), but I do want to see both characters written well.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    He's not telling her take any id.

    There is a certain er transformation I think old school WW fans will love.
    Huh. Does it involve twirling a rope?

  13. #148
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Huh. Does it involve twirling a rope?
    spoilers:
    Yes, it does, and it makes no sense because there's no way I can see for why Diana would know that's something she could do without ever trying it first.
    end of spoilers Consequently, it's an homage without logic, as far as I can tell.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    ...a year for the Congress to deal with ARGUS, the JL, etc. ...
    Congress must act a lot faster in the DCU than in the real world. :)

    I don't read Team Seven but isn't that story happening before Steve Trevor was with the JL?
    Team 7, like JL's first arc, takes place about 5 years ago. Steve's not in it yet, but we know from a comment in JL, as well as from solicits, that he's going to join. Then he's going to have various adventures with them, get promoted from captain to colonel, and be appointed JL liaison and head of ARGUS. That promotion (or series of promotions, from Captain to Major to Lieutenant Colonel to Colonel) would probably take a good deal more than five years in the real world, I'm guessing. (ETA--seems like it would take at least 9 years to get from grade 3, captain, to grade 6, colonel, in the real world, going by this page:
    http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promo...fficerprom.htm )

    Anyway... that'd explain better this WW's attitude as still freshly new in man's world. Because otherwise if I was living in a new country for 5 years without making any friends or without understanding the customs of the people around me, then you may call me a not too really sociable person, a not open-minded one or an hermit.
    I don't know about that. First I'd probably praise your linguistic skills, if you had become fully fluent in the language of your new country in less than 5 years (or much less than that, going by JL's first arc). Then, after observing that you'd been functioning as a member of the world's most important team as well as a a government agency operative for five years, I'd probably give you credit for a quick adjustment. Knowing that you're a superpowered immortal from a single-gendered lost-in-time island, I'd note that you faced some unusual adjustment obstacles, and I'd be impressed that you formed at least three close relationships (Steve, Barbara and the woman on the Apache reservation) over the past five years. (I would not assume that those three CLOSE friends were the only people whom you had been friendly with. You might, for example, have been friendly to a little girl with an ice cream cone when you first came to the country.) Knowing that one of those close friends had betrayed you, that another had been gravely injured because of being your friend, and that your mother and entire country had been virtually killed in part because of your existence, I'd understand that you were still having some adjustment issues.

    By the way, nobody answered my question about if Superman is schooling her, then what lessons can he learn from her in the other hand?
    I guess she does have nothing to offer.
    I've said it before, but I imagine he could benefit from her sense of wonder as a stranger in a world that is still relatively new to her, and I'm sure he could help him learn to cope better with the supernatural, as JLD 1 suggests. I'd like to see him learn from her, and I hope it happens soon.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-21-2012 at 11:46 AM.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    These are interesting comparisons, but both of you fail to mention the obvious difference--as MissLane pointed out, "The glasses and Clark Kent disguise were already part of Clark and something he'd used for years." In both examples, Bruce and Diana are simply reminding Clark of somthing HE already did HIMSELF. So, it's not as one-sided as lecture Clark in JL.
    I don't think I failed to mention that:

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn
    Granted, being reminded isn't the same as being taught something for the first time--but in a way, isn't it even worse to have to be reminded why you shouldn't stop being the person you've been in your civilian life since childhood? What if Diana had needed Batman to remind her why she valued her Amazon [upbringing]?
    But any way, on the acculturation stuff....

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanWonder
    5 YEARS later, a team that's been in life-and-death situation after situation and doesn't know the basics about each other?
    Which basics do you mean? Diana understands that Hal is an ass; that seems pretty basic to his character as Johns has been writing him in this book. :)

    She didn't understand how and why Clark uses his secret identity because he hadn't shared that with her until now. It is a secret identity, after all.

    She gets how her teammates feel about swords, and though she doesn't agree, it seems like she must have been deferring to them on that to some degree, except in the cases of less human beings like the talons in JL 8 (or whichever issue that was). I'd prefer that the JL Wonder Woman be less sword happy, but that's not an acculturation issue so much as a general characterization issue.

    I do think it would be nice to show more clearly that she understands teamwork and leadership. After all, why wouldn't she? The Amazons probably have a more collectivist culture than ours, and she has been raised to lead their "team." But I think her initial problems with teamwork in the last couple of issues have less to do with cultural difference and more to do with her sense of personal responsibility for what has happened to her friends, and also with her questions about how much she can share her responsibilities with mortals.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-21-2012 at 11:47 AM.

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