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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Excuse me?

    I seem to recall plenty of times in the past when Diana took out Cheetah singlehanded.

    Unlike last issue of JL, where she and Flash provided a distraction to let Aquaman get the job done.
    I said she was "key," not "THE key." Sometimes in a team book, it takes a team effort to get the job done. But I would call drop-kicking someone deep into a river more than a "distraction."

    I dont see the Amazon culture as being that much different to quite a few other cultures, actually.
    I would say being a single-gender culture makes it pretty unique. Being immortal would also probably result in some cultural differences. So would having face-to-face contact with their gods. And while homogeneity and eschewing modern technology are not "unique," they are radically different from the dominant culture of, say, Washington or London.

    I don't see where you're getting that Wonder Woman has learned "nothing." That seems extreme. I'm just seeing that after 5 years she hasn't quite worked out how to have close and stable relationships with these fragile and sometimes (as in Barbara's case) deceptive mortals. If you put JL together with Azz, you see that she's dealing with these issues at roughly the same time that she has realized her mother and some other elders were lying to her throughout her life, and that she is half god; and she has lost her beloved family and gained an often-treacherous new one. She's in a time of personal crisis. Her wisdom would enable her to work it out over time, but there's nothing wrong with accepting some comfort and sense of perspective from a friend who has been dealing with similar issues his whole life. Sometimes the wisest thing is to take a little help from your friends. (This is where if the CBR forums had a soundtrack the Beetles would start playing.)
    Last edited by slvn; 12-18-2012 at 09:31 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I said she was "key," not "THE key." Sometimes in a team book, it takes a team effort to get the job done. But I would call drop-kicking someone deep into a river more than a "distraction."
    She could just have repeatedly punched her in the head for the same result...but I suppose Aquaham needed another moment of glory.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    She could just have repeatedly punched her in the head for the same result...but I suppose Aquaham needed another moment of glory.
    Well, yeah. It's a team book. You gotta pass the cup of glory around a little. Maybe it would have been better to pass it to Flash, who has gotten shorter shrift. But at least Superman was useless against Cheetah, which arguably balances the scales between Superman and Wonder Woman a little bit.

    I will say, though, that I'd like to see Wonder Woman be the one with a plan one of these days. "We blind him!" was a start, but maybe it could be a more fully realized plan next time.

  4. #64
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I will say, though, that I'd like to see Wonder Woman be the one with a plan one of these days. "We blind him!" was a start, but maybe it could be a more fully realized plan next time.
    Sure, we can call it that. A plan. Like Jayne's plan on Firefly. "Let's shoot them and blow them up." That plan never gets old.

    And apparently neither does Diana's. Green Lantern is stopping me from leaving. I stab him with my sword! We are being attacked by incorporeal spirits we cant touch. I have my sword ready - to stab them!
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Sure, we can call it that. A plan. Like Jayne's plan on Firefly. "Let's shoot them and blow them up." That plan never gets old.

    And apparently neither does Diana's. Green Lantern is stopping me from leaving. I stab him with my sword! We are being attacked by incorporeal spirits we cant touch. I have my sword ready - to stab them!
    Hopefully she doesnt treat waiters the same way.

    "My sandwich wasn't as good as I wanted it - I must stab him for this offence!"

  6. #66
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    lol, I love how all of THIS can come from one page of a preview.

    As Diana says, "You have to be kidding me."
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Hopefully she doesnt treat waiters the same way.

    "My sandwich wasn't as good as I wanted it - I must stab him for this offence!"
    Or message board posters. "My intelligence has been insulted! Where is my sword? I'm off to Esbjerg and Australia."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Or message board posters. "My intelligence has been insulted! Where is my sword? I'm off to Esbjerg and Australia."
    Well I can take comfort in at least two things in that;
    A) Australia is a big place and will take some time searching.
    B) Still a decent amount of people in Esbjerg to hide amongst when she comes to the right continent.
    C) I am pretty sure she will be looking for Geoff Johns first :)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Well I can take comfort in at least two things in that;
    A) Australia is a big place and will take some time searching.
    Yes--assuming she comes for Brett before you!

    C) I am pretty sure she will be looking for Geoff Johns first :)
    LOL. Maybe so!

  10. #70
    yes...THE Wonderman. RealWonderman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I said she was "key," not "THE key." Sometimes in a team book, it takes a team effort to get the job done. But I would call drop-kicking someone deep into a river more than a "distraction."



    I would say being a single-gender culture makes it pretty unique. Being immortal would also probably result in some cultural differences. So would having face-to-face contact with their gods. And while homogeneity and eschewing modern technology are not "unique," they are radically different from the dominant culture of, say, Washington or London.

    I don't see where you're getting that Wonder Woman has learned "nothing." That seems extreme. I'm just seeing that after 5 years she hasn't quite worked out how to have close and stable relationships with these fragile and sometimes (as in Barbara's case) deceptive mortals. If you put JL together with Azz, you see that she's dealing with these issues at roughly the same time that she has realized her mother and some other elders were lying to her throughout her life, and that she is half god; and she has lost her beloved family and gained an often-treacherous new ones. She's in a time of personal crisis. Her wisdom would enable her to work it out over time, but there's nothing wrong with accepting some comfort and sense of perspective from a friend who has been dealing with the same issue his whole life. Sometimes the wisest thing is to take a little help from your friends. (This is where if the CBR forums has a soundtrack the Beetles would start playing.)
    THIS. Plus 6 characters.
    Are you sure that "by the grace of god" you survived? Maybe god was trying to GET you and missed??!!??
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  11. #71
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I said she was "key," not "THE key." Sometimes in a team book, it takes a team effort to get the job done. But I would call drop-kicking someone deep into a river more than a "distraction."
    Diana should have had the coup de grace moment, as it was her iconic nemesis and former friend.

    She's in a time of personal crisis. Her wisdom would enable her to work it out over time, but there's nothing wrong with accepting some comfort and sense of perspective from a friend who has been dealing with similar issues his whole life. Sometimes the wisest thing is to take a little help from your friends. (This is where if the CBR forums had a soundtrack the Beetles would start playing.)
    Perhaps because my profession is counseling and psychotherapy, I don't respond well to the particular approach Johns via Superman is taking to address Diana's moment of personal crisis. This is a time where Clark should help Diana open up and be there to listen to her. If in that process, he shared his own advice and wisdom the dynamic would feel more balanced or equal. I'd feel more comfortable with what's been happening if things in the narrative were shifted a bit. To avoid the idiocy of Superman and Wonder Woman dining in full costume at a Smallville diner, Superman could have lightheartedly helped Diana don a disguise so they could go together. That way, she'd experience what it's like to be Clark first hand, but it would have felt more logical, spontaneous, and fun. Now, I don't know (and I'm not sure I ever will) yet whether Clark just had the other glasses lying around the house, they're his own spares he carries with him, or he got them especially for Diana. If he had them with him and was planning on presenting her with a replica of his own human persona after one kiss, it feels somewhat selfish and over eager.

    These scenes read as if Johns is using the relationship structure to get people to know Clark more. Accordingly, they have done very little to help us understand Diana's point of view. As I indicated before, it's the imbalance that's problematic. We shouldn't have to write paragraphs speculating about what Diana's life is like when she's not kicking butt with the rest of the League or how she feels about her old home and her past and her new home and her assimilation. Usually on dates there should be a good back and forth where both parties share a little about themselves. One act of openness and disclosure from one person encourages the same in the other, and so it goes. Superman has been driving these scenes far too much for far too long, and it feels like Diana is getting lost in it.

    I get that she's in crisis, but Diana in crisis doesn't have to come off as a deer in the headlights and Clark's approach to helping this woman he cares about should be done with more patience and respect. In JL12, he kisses Diana as she's literally crying over her first love. In the follow up Superman book (Superman #13), we're shown that even after the kiss Clark is still pining for Lois Lane and is actively jealous of her boyfriend. JL13 picks up afterward and there at least Superman gives Diana some space and focuses on helping her as a friend and teammate. What's odd, though, is his reaction to Diana's second disappointment (the first being the loss of Steve in her life, the second being the loss of Barbara). I'm not really seeing the connection between a friend one thought was good but wasn't to the benefits of a secret identity and life outside Watchtower, for instance.

    WW: If I can't trust my own instincts, I can't trust anyone.
    SM: You have a team of people you can trust. You can trust me.
    WW: I don't know that much about you Superman.
    SM: Let's change that.


    Superman proceeds to use Smallville to explain why he's Superman and to inform Diana that goodness still exists. Basically, he wants Diana to not lose faith in her own trusting nature, which seeks to see the good in things, by giving her his own inspiration to her: Smallville. Johns tries to force into this discussion, which I feel works fine as is, extra stuff about having a non-hero life to escape into, which I think is less successful. For one, instead of changing the subject to a civilian identity, I feel like it would have been nice to hear Diana speak about Themyscira or, at the very least, have her utter more than: "To protect Smallville?" "And this is where you grew up?" "Can I meet your parents?" "It's beautiful, Clark." "I thought so, but that feels too simple now." Meanwhile, Superman has a virtual monologue. Diana's dialogue generally doesn't even feel like it's there for her sake. At least have her express sadness that she doesn't have roots among humans, and how that makes her feel, but also how her upbringing shaped her. I don't know. It's kind of hard for me to express why I feel the way I feel. It's just that to have month after month of imbalanced scenes has become frustrating.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-18-2012 at 10:36 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Diana should have had the coup de grace moment, as it was her iconic nemesis and former friend.
    Fair enough. But looking at the comic again, I do think she had the most impressive moment. She kicks Cheetah high in the air; Cheetah plops unceremoniouslyinto the river; and Aquaman just slaps a chokehold on her. She was actively fighting Wonder Woman, but doesn't really show any fight once she's in the river.

    On the other hand, it was Aquaman's plan. Ideally, I would have preferred it to be Diana's.

    Perhaps because my profession is counseling and psychotherapy, I don't respond well to the particular approach Johns via Superman is taking to address Diana's moment of personal crisis. This is a time where Clark should help Diana open up and be there to listen to her. If in that process, he shared his own advice and wisdom the dynamic would feel more balanced or equal.
    Interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't make the argument that Superman's approach to helping is perfect. I think he's just doing his best to help--maybe a little hamfistedly, It doesn't necessarily bother me, maybe because I'm not a mental health professional--I can relate to being the well-intentional friend who is trying to help but is a little awkward about it, adn also to being to one whom a friend is awkwardly trying to help.


    These scenes read as if Johns is using the relationship structure to get people to know Clark more. Accordingly, they have done very little to help us understand Diana's point of view. As I indicated before, it's the imbalance that's problematic. We shouldn't have to write paragraphs speculating about what Diana's life is like when she's not kicking butt with the rest of the League or how she feels about her old home and her past and her new home and her assimilation. Usually on dates there should be a good back and forth where both parties share a little about themselves. One act of openness and disclosure from one person encourages the same in the other, and so it goes. Superman has been driving these scenes far too much for far too long, and it feels like Diana is getting lost in it.
    Yeah. I think Johns said she will be taking Superman somewhere important to her. I'd like to see her take him to visit her Apache friend, or Paradise Island, soon.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-18-2012 at 01:28 PM.

  13. #73
    Power Corrupts Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Excuse me?

    I seem to recall plenty of times in the past when Diana took out Cheetah singlehanded.

    Unlike last issue of JL, where she and Flash provided a distraction to let Aquaman get the job done.
    To be fair it seems like WW was the only one able to hang with Cheetah till she knocked her into the water for the Aquaman sneak attack.

    Superman gets taken down with one bite immediately. Batman is easily dismissed. Cheetah can dodge Cyborg's attacks. And Flash gets owned not once but twice

    I feel this establishes Cheetah as a big threat and doesn't take away from Wonder Woman's strength and fighting prowess. Johns already had her kick the crap out of Green Lantern and Superman a few issues back and she was the only one to block Darkseid's Omega beams, cementing her alpha dog status.


  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I feel this establishes Cheetah as a big threat and doesn't take away from Wonder Woman's strength and fighting prowess. Johns already had her kick the crap out of Green Lantern and Superman a few issues back and she was the only one to block Darkseid's Omega beams, cementing her alpha dog status.
    I would point out the only other thing that I can remember actually survived an 'with intents to kill' shot of omegabeam was Doomsday in the old continuity. And sadly...Diana is kicking the wrong people to prove her degree of awesomeness.

    Punching Darkseid through several city blocks would be awesome.
    Sending Graves into lower orbit would be awesome.
    Flattening a god was awesome.

    Superman/GL...while impressive it is still ultimately the wrong people to use for such things (except Hal :) ).
    Last edited by Outside_85; 12-18-2012 at 11:57 AM.

  15. #75
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    She temporarily blinded Darkseid in the first arc to keep him from using his Omega Beams. A pretty impressive feat against possibly the DCU's biggest villain, and a smart idea at that.

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