How big would you prefer the Bat-family to be? Why?

[DonC]

But Steph and Cassandra have been dropped, haven't they? I pretty much forgot about Bette, since I don't read Batwoman anymore but, yeah, I'd be happy to see her gone too. Damian, on the other hand, has really grown on me.

I think that DC will bring back Steph and Cassandra eventually. Right now, DC has gone all in on Barbara, but Cass and Steph fans just aren't going away. I think DC will cave in and bring them back. Maybe not in a Batman Family comic (Spoiler in Teen Titans and Black Bat in Outsiders?), but they'll bring them back.

[The Man From Room X]

Yeah, but if you keep the classic combo and refuse to let them evolve in some manner, than I personally feel you've got a rather bland ensemble that is in danger of stagnating if you don't change their function and form in the stories, and else-worlds just ain't going to cut it.

It's kind of like the original line-up of NCIS with Kate, Tony and no McGee. The characters are okay and competent, but their predictable behavior and interactions make them less interesting. but add in a little brother character like McGee or a mysterious and highly unusual character like Ziva, and you've got a whole wealth of character moments and story-arcs that will help cement an audience's love for the characters and may even steal the spotlight from a by-the-numbers procedural or adventure story.

It's why I embrace a larger family and feel you have to include Cass and Steph as female Bat characters. Babs just isn't that interesting to me in her current incarnation.. she's the street-level member of the family who ranks as probably the third most dangerous member on a squad of mostly heavy-hitters, and that's on a good day, since Tim's hacked her hacking skills and Jason's actually got resources. And just as a vigilante girl, I feel no compunction to buy any of her books. I was drawn to Cassandra's series because she was a grade-A butt-kicker with a fascinating social handicap and Steph's because she was funny, had golden interactions with all Bat-family memebrs, and had a chip on her shoulder. Without some serious firepower or resonating back-ground, and without any characters in the immediate core family to act as foil or mentor to, what does Babs have?

I own a a trade paperback of Cass's series along with several issues, and I also own some Steph-Bat issues, and I own zero Babs-as-Batgirl issues, and this is no form of protest over the former characters' benching. I just find it too dull to spend my small comic budget on an issue. And don't argue she's better because she's the original one. Dick was the original Robin, but I've yet to hear anyone seriously suggest he should regress back to Robin without accompanying the idea with the expectation he'll eventually evolve into Nightwing again. And unlike Barbara, Dick still has his foils in little-brother Tim, black sheep Jason, and bratty but respectful buddy Damian. He'd no doubt sell alright without them, but isn't both a better character with them and likely a more profitable one too?

In other words, I support a large Bat family because I feel that's how you make strong but older characters more relevant and relatable today. Not through bringing them down to "average joe" level, but by having them and more importantly, their relationships and legacies grow.

Quoted for the motherloving truth.

[batGRRRl4ever]

Unfortunately I think one would have a real hard time trying to argue that Dick is better for having all of them after the relaunch. Given this stupid condensed timeline, and how they decided to fill out Tim and Jason's worlds with Dick's, leaving him with, well nothing but a new red suit. Titan legacy was given to Tim, his friends given to Jason. Ya, not sure how he's better off these days. Hard to even call Tim his little brother anymore, given that they've had like no interaction with one another in the relaunch and Dick being cut out of Tim's origin, and even Jason is becoming less and less of a black sheep, being called in for family meetings and what have you. Hell they are all now less distinct then ever with all the blending they've done with them, and all the red.

This is EXACTLY what has/had happened in the comics to both Dick & Bab's in having THEIR histories and storylines made fodder to be taken by newer spin-off characters, and it did nothing but make Bab's a support character in the previous reality, and has made Dick nothing but a bare bones version of his former self in the current New 52. BOTH of these primary bat-family members were scavenged and picked apart in terms of character traits and storylines that were their own, but taken by unnecessary newer characters who had nothing original to them.

Damian has taken the place of being Batman/Bruce's primary son and partner, a position that used to be Dick's. Jason has taken the place of the troubled relationship with Batman along with leadership of former Titan characters, which used to be Dick's storylines in his Teen Titan days, and finally Tim took Dick's smarts (he really used to be way more of a detective back in the 70's) and Nightwing is still smart but more of a street vigilante anymore. So it can be seen that traits and storylines that were Dick's alone, were taken from him and given to unnecessary redundant newer characters.

The exact same thing happened to Barbara, and it caused her prior to the New 52 to languish and devolve into a support character in an office room.

I reiterate, Dick & Bab's are the only bat-family members Batman needs, as all the rest are just extensions of Dick & Bab's but with just different names.

Yeah, but if you keep the classic combo and refuse to let them evolve in some manner, than I personally feel you've got a rather bland ensemble that is in danger of stagnating if you don't change their function and form in the stories, and else-worlds just ain't going to cut it.

In other words, I support a large Bat family because I feel that's how you make strong but older characters more relevant and relatable today. Not through bringing them down to "average joe" level, but by having them and more importantly, their relationships and legacies grow.

This argument is flawed because everything that has been great and nuanced character traits and storylines for Dick & Bab's in the past kept getting canibalized and taken by other unnecessary newer characters. A tighter family of 5-7 people makes for better drama and story than a rambling mess of 13-15 characters that none of whom really differentiate from each other (seriously, there is very little difference in essence between Huntress and Batwoman).

And do you seriously think that Superman is going to retire to the sun and give his mantle to Superboy? Do you think that Diana is going to retire to be a queen on her island nation when/if Donna ever pops back up? Do you think that DC will retire primary recognized properties for paler imitations? Comic characters DON'T change because they don't really age. There is only an illusion of change and progression until a new writer comes in to refresh the line, or with DC doing yet another of their giant reboots of all books. And that is why the primary characters stay in their places for the most part.

To expect for generational change, true aging in cast members and giving off legacy titles, then my friend your simply too old for comics.

[shark]

Yeah, but if you keep the classic combo and refuse to let them evolve in some manner, than I personally feel you've got a rather bland ensemble that is in danger of stagnating if you don't change their function and form in the stories, and else-worlds just ain't going to cut it.

It's kind of like the original line-up of NCIS with Kate, Tony and no McGee. The characters are okay and competent, but their predictable behavior and interactions make them less interesting. but add in a little brother character like McGee or a mysterious and highly unusual character like Ziva, and you've got a whole wealth of character moments and story-arcs that will help cement an audience's love for the characters and may even steal the spotlight from a by-the-numbers procedural or adventure story.

It's why I embrace a larger family and feel you have to include Cass and Steph as female Bat characters. Babs just isn't that interesting to me in her current incarnation.. she's the street-level member of the family who ranks as probably the third most dangerous member on a squad of mostly heavy-hitters, and that's on a good day, since Tim's hacked her hacking skills and Jason's actually got resources. And just as a vigilante girl, I feel no compunction to buy any of her books. I was drawn to Cassandra's series because she was a grade-A butt-kicker with a fascinating social handicap and Steph's because she was funny, had golden interactions with all Bat-family memebrs, and had a chip on her shoulder. Without some serious firepower or resonating back-ground, and without any characters in the immediate core family to act as foil or mentor to, what does Babs have?

I own a a trade paperback of Cass's series along with several issues, and I also own some Steph-Bat issues, and I own zero Babs-as-Batgirl issues, and this is no form of protest over the former characters' benching. I just find it too dull to spend my small comic budget on an issue. And don't argue she's better because she's the original one. Dick was the original Robin, but I've yet to hear anyone seriously suggest he should regress back to Robin without accompanying the idea with the expectation he'll eventually evolve into Nightwing again. And unlike Barbara, Dick still has his foils in little-brother Tim, black sheep Jason, and bratty but respectful buddy Damian. He'd no doubt sell alright without them, but isn't both a better character with them and likely a more profitable one too?

In other words, I support a large Bat family because I feel that's how you make strong but older characters more relevant and relatable today. Not through bringing them down to "average joe" level, but by having them and more importantly, their relationships and legacies grow.

Perfectly put

[Whip Whirlwind]

This is EXACTLY what has/had happened in the comics to both Dick & Bab's in having THEIR histories and storylines made fodder to be taken by newer spin-off characters, and it did nothing but make Bab's a support character in the previous reality, and has made Dick nothing but a bare bones version of his former self in the current New 52. BOTH of these primary bat-family members were scavenged and picked apart in terms of character traits and storylines that were their own, but taken by unnecessary newer characters who had nothing original to them.

This is a huge oversimplification.

Damian has taken the place of being Batman/Bruce's primary son and partner, a position that used to be Dick's. Jason has taken the place of the troubled relationship with Batman along with leadership of former Titan characters, which used to be Dick's storylines in his Teen Titan days, and finally Tim took Dick's smarts (he really used to be way more of a detective back in the 70's) and Nightwing is still smart but more of a street vigilante anymore. So it can be seen that traits and storylines that were Dick's alone, were taken from him and given to unnecessary redundant newer characters.

Most of these "thefts" have more to do with Dick moving beyond that role. I completely agree on the Titans characters, but for the most part Dick's 'tec skills being downplayed was just bad writing. As for the primary partner and trouble relationship with batman beats, Damian/Jason can have them because they are character beats that Dick has moved / developed past.

The exact same thing happened to Barbara, and it caused her prior to the New 52 to languish and devolve into a support character in an office room.

While I agree other characters fulfilling the batgirl role successfully would make putting Babs back in the role less necessary, I think there's just as much to blame on TKJ's success and Moore's reputation.

I reiterate, Dick & Bab's are the only bat-family members Batman needs, as all the rest are just extensions of Dick & Bab's but with just different names.

Respectfully disagree.

This argument is flawed because everything that has been great and nuanced character traits and storylines for Dick & Bab's in the past kept getting canibalized and taken by other unnecessary newer characters. A tighter family of 5-7 people makes for better drama and story than a rambling mess of 13-15 characters that none of whom really differentiate from each other (seriously, there is very little difference in essence between Huntress and Batwoman).

Disagree with your comment on Batwoman / Huntress, but I agree with the bolded, which is why I support the idea of an immediate and extended bat "family"

And do you seriously think that Superman is going to retire to the sun and give his mantle to Superboy? Do you think that Diana is going to retire to be a queen on her island nation when/if Donna ever pops back up? Do you think that DC will retire primary recognized properties for paler imitations? Comic characters DON'T change because they don't really age. There is only an illusion of change and progression until a new writer comes in to refresh the line, or with DC doing yet another of their giant reboots of all books. And that is why the primary characters stay in their places for the most part.

They can change, they're just an age limit, and its not like experiences that happen on a one issue per month basis can't be condensed to fit within that age limit.

[Aquacatlungfish]

This is EXACTLY what has/had happened in the comics to both Dick & Bab's in having THEIR histories and storylines made fodder to be taken by newer spin-off characters, and it did nothing but make Bab's a support character in the previous reality, and has made Dick nothing but a bare bones version of his former self in the current New 52. BOTH of these primary bat-family members were scavenged and picked apart in terms of character traits and storylines that were their own, but taken by unnecessary newer characters who had nothing original to them.

Damian has taken the place of being Batman/Bruce's primary son and partner, a position that used to be Dick's. Jason has taken the place of the troubled relationship with Batman along with leadership of former Titan characters, which used to be Dick's storylines in his Teen Titan days, and finally Tim took Dick's smarts (he really used to be way more of a detective back in the 70's) and Nightwing is still smart but more of a street vigilante anymore. So it can be seen that traits and storylines that were Dick's alone, were taken from him and given to unnecessary redundant newer characters.

The exact same thing happened to Barbara, and it caused her prior to the New 52 to languish and devolve into a support character in an office room.

I reiterate, Dick & Bab's are the only bat-family members Batman needs, as all the rest are just extensions of Dick & Bab's but with just different names.



This argument is flawed because everything that has been great and nuanced character traits and storylines for Dick & Bab's in the past kept getting canibalized and taken by other unnecessary newer characters. A tighter family of 5-7 people makes for better drama and story than a rambling mess of 13-15 characters that none of whom really differentiate from each other (seriously, there is very little difference in essence between Huntress and Batwoman).

And do you seriously think that Superman is going to retire to the sun and give his mantle to Superboy? Do you think that Diana is going to retire to be a queen on her island nation when/if Donna ever pops back up? Do you think that DC will retire primary recognized properties for paler imitations? Comic characters DON'T change because they don't really age. There is only an illusion of change and progression until a new writer comes in to refresh the line, or with DC doing yet another of their giant reboots of all books. And that is why the primary characters stay in their places for the most part.

To expect for generational change, true aging in cast members and giving off legacy titles, then my friend your simply too old for comics.

Can I ask what Batwoman comics you've been reading? There are no similarities to Batwoman and Huntress at all. I fail to see the similarities between Dick and Damian and Jason and Steph. Seriously, there are none. Who in the batfamily is like Cass Cain? None at all. What's the similarities between Babs and Cass. Tell me please. If anything the new Talon good guy is a rip off of her. The reason why people love Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin was that they had great chemistry from coming from different viewpoints and perspectives as one was Bruce's lighthearted son in personality and Damian was more Talia's son. I literally can't think of a single similarity of Todd and Steph. Todd post crisis was the opposite of Dick in every way and up until New 52 Tim's approach to Batman was very different to Dick's (still annoyed Dick now has part of Tim's origin). Bab's has always been a supporting character and Oracle gave her a presence over the DCu and she lead her own team. If anything I can't tell the difference between the new Babs and Stephgirl other than Babs cries more. Dick was made more relavent than ever by becoming Nightwing. He was the hero of his very own city became more than Batman's sidekick and became the goshdarn Batman for a while and had like 4 monthly titles about him. I call that more relavence than ever.

Personally I would honestly like to see it as big as possible even with characters I don't like because Cass and Steph fans are more annoying than DC blacklisting them. I would come up with a better name for Tim than Red Robin, put Babs back as Oracle as it gives her more relavence than she'll ever achieve as Batgirl and make Todd Wingman to complete his redemption journey. Bring back Cass and Steph as Black Bat and Spoiler and Bertinelli comes back as Huntress and Wayne goes back to Earth 2 where she belongs.

[godisawesome]

This is EXACTLY what has/had happened in the comics to both Dick & Bab's in having THEIR histories and storylines made fodder to be taken by newer spin-off characters, and it did nothing but make Bab's a support character in the previous reality, and has made Dick nothing but a bare bones version of his former self in the current New 52. BOTH of these primary bat-family members were scavenged and picked apart in terms of character traits and storylines that were their own, but taken by unnecessary newer characters who had nothing original to them.

Damian has taken the place of being Batman/Bruce's primary son and partner, a position that used to be Dick's. Jason has taken the place of the troubled relationship with Batman along with leadership of former Titan characters, which used to be Dick's storylines in his Teen Titan days, and finally Tim took Dick's smarts (he really used to be way more of a detective back in the 70's) and Nightwing is still smart but more of a street vigilante anymore. So it can be seen that traits and storylines that were Dick's alone, were taken from him and given to unnecessary redundant newer characters.

The exact same thing happened to Barbara, and it caused her prior to the New 52 to languish and devolve into a support character in an office room.

I reiterate, Dick & Bab's are the only bat-family members Batman needs, as all the rest are just extensions of Dick & Bab's but with just different names.



This argument is flawed because everything that has been great and nuanced character traits and storylines for Dick & Bab's in the past kept getting canibalized and taken by other unnecessary newer characters. A tighter family of 5-7 people makes for better drama and story than a rambling mess of 13-15 characters that none of whom really differentiate from each other (seriously, there is very little difference in essence between Huntress and Batwoman).

And do you seriously think that Superman is going to retire to the sun and give his mantle to Superboy? Do you think that Diana is going to retire to be a queen on her island nation when/if Donna ever pops back up? Do you think that DC will retire primary recognized properties for paler imitations? Comic characters DON'T change because they don't really age. There is only an illusion of change and progression until a new writer comes in to refresh the line, or with DC doing yet another of their giant reboots of all books. And that is why the primary characters stay in their places for the most part.

To expect for generational change, true aging in cast members and giving off legacy titles, then my friend your simply too old for comics.

Uh, just for the record, I'm 22.

I thank you for your response as I thank everyone else as well, but I am going to hazard a guess that there are two different comic philosophies being shown here; the classic approach of a more streamlined team with more episodic nature of storytelling (which has worked for decades) and a more pseudo-developing story version that depends on keeping momentum in character evolutions, at the risk of crashing a favored character but with the potential to build characters up with some chronological aging and definite generational gaps.

Seeing as how it's the second school of thought that I'm accustomed to from the Post-Crisis books I first read, I must also state that I believe the Batman line still had the most Post-Crisis momentum of all the DCU. You had a rough but well-executed (with the exception of War Games, which wound up being erased via storytelling as opposed to retconned out) timeline that definitely flowed from one group of heroes to another, usually moving forward (Dick to Batman, Tim to Red Robin, Cass to Black Bat, Steph to Batgirl) in a way that at least played up the idea that the characters were aging. Unfortunately for the rest of the DCU, most of the other characters fell victim to the Geoff Johns curse-he'd show up, right a story that favored some Silver Age ideas, do the story very well, but when he left the book would fall apart. Just look at Flash; he writes Blitz (my second favorite Flash story behind the Return of Barry Allen), War of the Rogues, and sets up a new status quo, but it all goes to hell shortly after he leaves. The same thing happened with Superman; Brainiac and New Krypton were good, but both were just slaughtered by sub-par writing after he left. It's why most of the DCU needed a complete reboot and why Batman is still pretty strongly, if not thoroughly, connected to the pre-Flashpoint universe and why some of us feel we have the right to complain about what we see as unnecessary changes to our favorite characters.

Now, I think your previous argument about Dick being "cannibalized" is flawed when discussing the pre-Flashpoint continuity-what you see as stuff "stolen" from him I see as him maturing beyond, especially in regards to his relationship with Bruce and place as the boy sidekick, since I regard Dick-Robin as a being of lesser interest than Nightwing. Now, post-Flashpoint Nightwing doesn't feel so much cannibalized to me as much as I feel stupid editorial decisions have muddled up all the Robins equally, but especially Tim and Dick since they had the longest tenures. Between the two of us posters, I doubt either of us is thrilled with the traits both characters have taken from each other for the reboot: You want a more traditional Dick Grayson with the Titans connections, and I want a Tim Drake with no gymnastic background and with Lady Shiva as his frenemy. So at least here, we both probably feel some changes are in order, albeit probably different changes.

Now as for Batgirl...I've already stated that I prefer Cass to Babs, and here I feel the only real things you can argue were cannibalized to create the second (or third if you're finicky) Batgirl were her position as a female Bat-character and the name itself. Their designs are radically different, as was their character conception, which almost lines up as opposite of each others strengths (cute-mute versus fiery-redhead, martial arts mastery versus old-school detective, socially-awkward versus socially skilled, scary costume versus fun costume). To put it in one of the wordings of one your older posts, Cassandra Cain did succeed as Batgirl on her own merits. I would simply argue that Cassandra's skills and handicaps act as abetter initial "hook" for the character. And like Babs, Cass has been the victim of editorial in the past. So while I will argue that good writing is needed to justify the differences of Steph-Bats versus Babs-Bats, I feel Cass is strong enough on her initial creation to be regarded as an equal to Babs in regards to their place in the Bat-family.

[tunneler]

I don't really see any similarities between the Robins, but there has always been too much confusion about the various Batgirls like their skill sets, intelligence, history etc and there was always confusion about who is the one true Batgirl. So we need only one Batgirl who would be the foremost female in the Batman and that is Barbara Gordon. Since Barbara has always been in various TV shows, movies and games it makes sense to make her the one true Batgirl. Sometime later Barbara Gordon will graduate to becoming Batwoman.

[sunofdarkchild]

Uh, just for the record, I'm 22.

I thank you for your response as I thank everyone else as well, but I am going to hazard a guess that there are two different comic philosophies being shown here; the classic approach of a more streamlined team with more episodic nature of storytelling (which has worked for decades) and a more pseudo-developing story version that depends on keeping momentum in character evolutions, at the risk of crashing a favored character but with the potential to build characters up with some chronological aging and definite generational gaps.

Seeing as how it's the second school of thought that I'm accustomed to from the Post-Crisis books I first read, I must also state that I believe the Batman line still had the most Post-Crisis momentum of all the DCU. You had a rough but well-executed (with the exception of War Games, which wound up being erased via storytelling as opposed to retconned out) timeline that definitely flowed from one group of heroes to another, usually moving forward (Dick to Batman, Tim to Red Robin, Cass to Black Bat, Steph to Batgirl) in a way that at least played up the idea that the characters were aging. Unfortunately for the rest of the DCU, most of the other characters fell victim to the Geoff Johns curse-he'd show up, right a story that favored some Silver Age ideas, do the story very well, but when he left the book would fall apart. Just look at Flash; he writes Blitz (my second favorite Flash story behind the Return of Barry Allen), War of the Rogues, and sets up a new status quo, but it all goes to hell shortly after he leaves. The same thing happened with Superman; Brainiac and New Krypton were good, but both were just slaughtered by sub-par writing after he left. It's why most of the DCU needed a complete reboot and why Batman is still pretty strongly, if not thoroughly, connected to the pre-Flashpoint universe and why some of us feel we have the right to complain about what we see as unnecessary changes to our favorite characters.

Now, I think your previous argument about Dick being "cannibalized" is flawed when discussing the pre-Flashpoint continuity-what you see as stuff "stolen" from him I see as him maturing beyond, especially in regards to his relationship with Bruce and place as the boy sidekick, since I regard Dick-Robin as a being of lesser interest than Nightwing. Now, post-Flashpoint Nightwing doesn't feel so much cannibalized to me as much as I feel stupid editorial decisions have muddled up all the Robins equally, but especially Tim and Dick since they had the longest tenures. Between the two of us posters, I doubt either of us is thrilled with the traits both characters have taken from each other for the reboot: You want a more traditional Dick Grayson with the Titans connections, and I want a Tim Drake with no gymnastic background and with Lady Shiva as his frenemy. So at least here, we both probably feel some changes are in order, albeit probably different changes.

Now as for Batgirl...I've already stated that I prefer Cass to Babs, and here I feel the only real things you can argue were cannibalized to create the second (or third if you're finicky) Batgirl were her position as a female Bat-character and the name itself. Their designs are radically different, as was their character conception, which almost lines up as opposite of each others strengths (cute-mute versus fiery-redhead, martial arts mastery versus old-school detective, socially-awkward versus socially skilled, scary costume versus fun costume). To put it in one of the wordings of one your older posts, Cassandra Cain did succeed as Batgirl on her own merits. I would simply argue that Cassandra's skills and handicaps act as abetter initial "hook" for the character. And like Babs, Cass has been the victim of editorial in the past. So while I will argue that good writing is needed to justify the differences of Steph-Bats versus Babs-Bats, I feel Cass is strong enough on her initial creation to be regarded as an equal to Babs in regards to their place in the Bat-family.

I think that modern comics often go too far away from the episodic nature they used to have. It gets to the point where good single issue stories are rarer than they should be. So many 3-5 issue arcs can be a pain, especially when the individual issues cover so little ground nowadays in their 20 pages and when the development shown in those arcs is often tossed aside so easily. And it often feels like writers only try when they have big arcs and not single issue stories.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Agreed, I wish we would get more Dini style bat books. That man is a master of the 1-2 shot.

[Godlike13]

Now, I think your previous argument about Dick being "cannibalized" is flawed when discussing the pre-Flashpoint continuity-what you see as stuff "stolen" from him I see as him maturing beyond, especially in regards to his relationship with Bruce and place as the boy sidekick, since I regard Dick-Robin as a being of lesser interest than Nightwing. Now, post-Flashpoint Nightwing doesn't feel so much cannibalized to me as much as I feel stupid editorial decisions have muddled up all the Robins equally, but especially Tim and Dick since they had the longest tenures. Between the two of us posters, I doubt either of us is thrilled with the traits both characters have taken from each other for the reboot: You want a more traditional Dick Grayson with the Titans connections, and I want a Tim Drake with no gymnastic background and with Lady Shiva as his frenemy. So at least here, we both probably feel some changes are in order, albeit probably different changes.

I still have no clue why they used Shiva and not Deathstroke. They had the perfect opportunity to reintroduce Deathstroke/Nightwing, but instead they go with a weird Lady Shiva. Uhg...

[Mr. Holmes]

I think that DC will bring back Steph and Cassandra eventually. Right now, DC has gone all in on Barbara, but Cass and Steph fans just aren't going away. I think DC will cave in and bring them back. Maybe not in a Batman Family comic (Spoiler in Teen Titans and Black Bat in Outsiders?), but they'll bring them back.

They actually might just go away. I know I am after Morrison is done with Inc.

[Vil_Dee]

Batman and Alfred with special quest appearances by Robin (not Jason or Damien), that is all. I'm kind of done with the Batman-lite Nightwing. If he wants to put the Robin uniform back on (preferably the old robin uniform), fine, but otherwise why do you need Batman lite when you got the real deal? If Batgirl was portrayed as she was before the Killing Joke, as a brave, though bit naive girl who got into it for fun, relying purely on her wits and barely making it out of situations by the seat of her bat pants, that would be fine, but angry Babs Warrior Princess, doesn't work for me.

I still have no clue why they used Shiva and not Deathstroke. They had the perfect opportunity to reintroduce Deathstroke/Nightwing, but instead they go with a weird Lady Shiva. Uhg...

Deathstroke already has his own book. They probably wanted to build up more female villains. And it's not looking so good for Tim, so he probably won't be needing any frenemies in the near future.

[destro]

Just Batman and Robin. Dump all of the rest. One book focusing on Batman solo and one book that features Batman and Robin.

I've never found any of the ridiculously large Bat-Family to be particularly interesting.

[batGRRRl4ever]

I will agree that the bat family is even now too crowded. Pre-Flashpoint it was far worse though, and I always imagined that if Batman called a bat family council meeting the parking area underneath all those bats would look a little something like this:



I still think there are at least 2 too many Robins around, and the whole Inc concept has gotta go.