Doomsday vs. The Avengers

[Beadle]

No offence intended, but I really don't think you're getting how Rumbles work.

We don't "lowball" thought balloons, comments passed by characters, or narrative comments. We pretty much ignore them completely. They're usually hyperbole, and always designed to add drama or build a story.

The only things that we really acknowledge are what the characters actually DO. Feats. And not feats involving other characters forgetting to use powers or speed that they've historically been presented as having. So if Supes is shown moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed, and Doomsday is keeping up with him, then it would be considered legit. If neither party are practically (i.e. not via narrative) using superspeed in the incident in question, and in this case they weren't, then it's not a speed feat.

[Eyeswithoutaface]

No offence intended, but I really don't think you're getting how Rumbles work.

Well, no offense, but I don't think you actually read my whole post.

We don't "lowball" thought balloons, comments passed by characters, or narrative comments. We pretty much ignore them completely. They're usually hyperbole, and always designed to add drama or build a story.

It's only narrative hyperbole if you can prove that the action on the page contradicts the narration. Not 'the narrator is always wrong'.

The only things that we really acknowledge are what the characters actually DO. Feats. And not feats involving other characters forgetting to use powers or speed that they've historically been presented as having. So if Supes is shown moving at a significant fraction of lightspeed, and Doomsday is keeping up with him, then it would be considered legit.

Who ever said anything about lightspeed? You're putting words into my mouth that I never said.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't know the reference. That said, if I were to compare, don't you think that on a continuum, Superman is making more of an absolute statement, while Spiderman isn't sure and is still trying to ascertain how fast his opponent is?

It's a statement. Statements are only used for evidence when they're actually backed up by what we see.

It's only PIS if you lowball Superman's thought balloon about needing to match Doomsday's speed. That seems like the linchpin to me in DOS. Otherwise, are we to believe that Jurgens, knowing his plot was to kill Superman, created a brand new kryptonian character without super speed (or ripped off the Hulk basically), but before getting there, he made sure to have multiple witnesses make remarks about Doomsday's speed only for dramatic purposes? That's a new kind of stupidity even for Jurgens.

Let's try to skip the bashing of writers, please, it's against Rumbles' Rules.

For that matter, writers have written all kinds of ridiculous PIS over the years, so we don't assume that they're not going to do so based on them not being dumb. It's not about the writer being stupid, it's about the plot, how it's shown, and what we get from the comic.

And in this comic, Doomsday isn't shown using Superspeed. Neither are the people fighting him.

Once Superman kisses Lois goodbye, the Cadmus soldiers with back mounted shock cannons never hit Doomsday. In fact, they commented on how it was impossible to hit him because they were moving too fast, so the action on the page doesn't contradict Superman's thought bubble about needing to match Doomsday's speed. At the very least, that makes Doomsday faster than a guy who can dig a trench, 'almost faster than mere mortal eyes can follow'. Also, keep in mind that this was written by the same guy that has had human bystanders perceiving Flash and Superman running around the Earth.

That would be the part where Clark has rammed into Doomsday and iS CARRYING him, while flying through the buildings. I'm looking at that now.

I'm not surprised they had problems hitting him at that point. Given that Clark is quite obviously flying at high speed.

However, up to that point they didn't HAVE any problems hitting him, they never even fired at him after that point, and everyone is basically watching Clark and Superman trade all of about three hits each after that, and commenting on them.

What is shown does not back up Doomsday having superspeed. :(

I'll note that the part where Clark comments on matching Doomsday's speed? That's the same part where the CADMUS troopers are having absolutely zero trouble shooting the crap out of Doomsday. Accurately.

Agreed, except that unlike Booster Gold who might say, 'Zoiks! He's faster than Flash!", Maxima is a more credible source because she has super speed, isn't a total goofball, and is willing to kill.

Someone ducking a punch from someone else in a fight where nobody is actually shown using superspeed isn't exactly a measure of them having superspeed. On Rumbles, we view that as PIS - always have.

Once again, I don't know the reference you're citing, but unlike Doomsday in DOS, aren't we familiar with what Deathstroke should or shouldn't be able to do based on his previous skirmishes?

Indeed, and a good point.

It doesn't change the fact that we don't have any superspeed feats for Doomsday at all, and we don't have any superspeed feats for the poeple Doomsday was fighting in that fight. Basically, superspeed might as well not have existed during that fight.

So it's the usual PIS of a person without superspeed feats hitting someone who has superspeed, but is apparently not using it. Basically, by Rumbles Rules, it's insufficient to give Doomsday any real superspeed at all.

[Beadle]

It's only narrative hyperbole if you can prove that the action on the page contradicts the narration. Not 'the narrator is always wrong'.

No. The onus isn't on someone to prove that the action contradicts the narrative.

The onus is on someone to prove that the narrative matches the action. And if it does, you still don't need the narrative, because you have a legitimate feat displayed by the actions, so the narrative now becomes superfluous.

So we usually just ignore it. If the narrative says "3 seconds later", and the character was on Earth in the preceding panel and now he's on the moon, that's a legitimate use of narrative. Otherwise, it's just fluff.

Who ever said anything about lightspeed? You're putting words into my mouth that I never said.

I never said you did. But for Doomsday to not be utterly blitzed by Supes, that's where he needs to be operating. Because Superman does have feats of that sort of speed, and any fight in which he isn't using it, is either PIS or CIS.