Luffy vs. Toriko

[Hazard]

For which we have no feats beyond us returning and finding them similarly; "Yep we're boned," and the Beast basically ignoring them in favour of wrecking shit. Implied fights can't really be used for specific durability.

Eh, they were visibly more hurt than before and lying face up on the floor.

Then the beast went for the finisher.

Are you arguing that the beast only chose then to hurt them after five minutes of not doing so?

Toriko's speed is nebulous. He's lacking a lot compared to Luffy who is fast as balls even outside of Gear Two.

I don't see that much of a difference myself.

If anything I'd say old granny's 'I flay you alive' is far more impressive than anything I have seen in One Piece.

Edit: Scratch that, it was ten minutes.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I don't see that much of a difference myself.

If anything I'd say old granny's 'I flay you alive' is far more impressive than anything I have seen in One Piece.

There's Mihawk casually slicing Buggy into hundreds of tiny morsels in the blink of an eye.

[Nik Hasta]

Eh, they were visibly more hurt than before and lying face up on the floor.

Then the beast went for the finisher.

Are you arguing that the beast only chose then to hurt them after five minutes of not doing so?

No, I'm arguing that you can't claim specific feats using an off-panel fight.

I don't see that much of a difference myself.

If anything I'd say old granny's 'I flay you alive' is far more impressive than anything I have seen in One Piece.

Edit: Scratch that, it was ten minutes.

I remain unconvinced. Two decent speedfeats does not the case make.

[Hazard]

No, I'm arguing that you can't claim specific feats using an off-panel fight.

You're claiming I can't say he hit them during those ten minutes then?

In which they were fighting.

I remain unconvinced. Two decent speedfeats does not the case make.

Eh, they are two speed feats that aren't contradicted by anything, the latter of which was performed in an arc which was specifically showing speed. In fact they are backed up by everything else. From the apparent level of the verse. To the speeds their attack go and so on. Not to mention the level of some of the high tiers (Seriously, walking in water casually but lifting up your foot before it sinks? That's crazy).

There's Mihawk casually slicing Buggy into hundreds of tiny morsels in the blink of an eye.

Nowhere near as impressive to me, I'm afraid. You want to cut something in a hundred pieces that's 20 slices. 10*10. You want 500 pieces. That's 50 slices.

You want to flay something to bare bones in the blink of an eye to the point the guy you're fighting doesn't notice? I can't even imagine that.

Killua wishes he could be that smooth when ripping out hearts.

[Nik Hasta]

You're claiming I can't say he hit them during those ten minutes then?

In which they were fighting.

Is entirely conjecture to say that he did, point is we don't know for certain.

We can only go by what we see and we're not going to see that fight in greater detail until the anime catches up.

Eh, they are two speed feats that aren't contradicted by anything, the latter of which was performed in an arc which was specifically showing speed. In fact they are backed up by everything else. From the apparent level of the verse. To the speeds their attack go and so on. Not to mention the level of some of the high tiers (Seriously, walking in water casually but lifting up your foot before it sinks? That's crazy).

Okay, a few points;

Firstly, the only feat that puts him in the same ballpark of current Luffy right now is him fighting with Chiyo. That's a massive outlier compared to everything else he's done. Toriko is quick, casual bullet timing, sure, but spontaneously able to match someone with outright superspeed? That's a bit more of a leap, hence my not being convinced. He's got feats of launching a bunch of attacks at once, him slicing up the golem's arm with like 16 attacks for example, implying good handspeed but that's nothing Luffy hasn't matched and exceeded.

Heck, even pre-Ennies Lobby Sanji was able to throw 20 kicks so fast it looked like one while not even trying.

Second, Toriko never explicitly matches Chiyo's speed. She goes to flay his insides out and he manages to raise a shield in time to block her attack while shooting a few knives. It's not him matching her flaying speed, nor does it give him speed on her level. So trying to claim that Toriko is as fast as Chiyo just isn't true.

You want to flay something to bare bones in the blink of an eye to the point the guy you're fighting doesn't notice? I can't even imagine that.

This part is less about speed. The manga explicitly points out that Food Honour grants a tremendous amount of precision that allows a person to cut living animals without them noticing. Even Komatsu managed it on the incredibly sensitive puffer whale after his training so the only bit that actually pertains to speed is that Wagon wasn't able to see her movements rather than him not feeling it.

Heck, since we know Chiyo can do the flaying thing from range, it's not like she had to move anything beyond her hands to do it.

[Hazard]

Is entirely conjecture to say that he did, point is we don't know for certain.

We can only go by what we see and we're not going to see that fight in greater detail until the anime catches up.

So you're in fact arguing it didn't hit them?

Firstly, the only feat that puts him in the same ballpark of current Luffy right now is him fighting with Chiyo. That's a massive outlier compared to everything else he's done. Toriko is quick, casual bullet timing, sure, but spontaneously able to match someone with outright superspeed? That's a bit more of a leap, hence my not being convinced. He's got feats of launching a bunch of attacks at once, him slicing up the golem's arm with like 16 attacks for example, implying good handspeed but that's nothing Luffy hasn't matched and exceeded.

So now you're claiming it is an outlier? An outlier that was specifically done after a training arc to make himself faster, more precise, making all sort of unnecessary moves and so on, and in general things that equal more speed, in a fight specifically made to show his new self?

Don't see it. Until we see him failing in speed to something that should be slower, I really don't see it.

I mean really, massive power jumps are big part of what this manga is all about.

Heck, even pre-Ennies Lobby Sanji was able to throw 20 kicks so fast it looked like one while not even trying.

Second, Toriko never explicitly matches Chiyo's speed. She goes to flay his insides out and he manages to raise a shield in time to block her attack while shooting a few knives. It's not him matching her flaying speed, nor does it give him speed on her level. So trying to claim that Toriko is as fast as Chiyo just isn't true.

And he manages to nail her to the ground with knives without her noticing.

This part is less about speed. The manga explicitly points out that Food Honour grants a tremendous amount of precision that allows a person to cut living animals without them noticing. Even Komatsu managed it on the incredibly sensitive puffer whale after his training so the only bit that actually pertains to speed is that Wagon wasn't able to see her movements rather than him not feeling it.

Heck, since we know Chiyo can do the flaying thing from range, it's not like she had to move anything beyond her hands to do it.

Chiyo doesn't do food honor though.

She in no uncertain terms tells us just what she thinks of silly food honor.

[Nik Hasta]

So you're in fact arguing it didn't hit them?

Again, I'm arguing that you can't use an off-panel fight as an example of a feat.

We use shown and demonstrated feats. What about this concept is so hard for you?

So now you're claiming it is an outlier? An outlier that was specifically done after a training arc to make himself faster, more precise, making all sort of unnecessary moves and so on, and in general things that equal more speed, in a fight specifically made to show his new self?

Don't see it. Until we see him failing in speed to something that should be slower, I really don't see it.

I mean really, massive power jumps are big part of what this manga is all about.

Just because something is inkeeping with the narrative doesn't mean it can't be an outlier.

Name one speed feat that Toriko has that even remotely equates to his supposed "matching of Chiyo,"

Seriously, give me even one example of Toriko showing superspeed even close to the level of Chiyo before or since. Catching bullets isn't one.

And he manages to nail her to the ground with knives without her noticing.

I did note that, he shot some knives while raising his shield. It's also more a testament to the fact that Chiyo apparently can't feel her feet.

Chiyo doesn't do food honor though.

She in no uncertain terms tells us just what she thinks of silly food honor.

She was partners with Chin, the guy who is the grand master of Food Honour, and clearly uses the same techniques as the practitioners of Food Honour. It's a reach to think that her entirely similar techniques that are noted to work in the same way as Food Honour stuff does not work in the same way.

[Hazard]

Again, I'm arguing that you can't use an off-panel fight as an example of a feat.

We use shown and demonstrated feats. What about this concept is so hard for you?

He hit them. We are shown the fight again, they are more hurt. The last time we saw them they were clearly charging at him.

The only way I can understand your objection is if you're saying Four Beast did not in fact hit them. Otherwise I don't see why this is an issue.

Just because something is inkeeping with the narrative doesn't mean it can't be an outlier.

Name one speed feat that Toriko has that even remotely equates to his supposed "matching of Chiyo,"

The only fight he has after that is the Four Beast. Which reacts to lasers from space and even his ridiculously fast leg knife at close range (the latter of which you posted in this thread, I think). So if anything that thing may be even faster than Chiyo.

Really, this is like trying to discredit Superman's recent lift planet weight for five days.

I don't think anyone of us doubts it despite Superman not showing crazy super strength feats on that level since. I am pretty sure it is because until he actually fails that's his new status.

Don't see why the same doesn't apply here.

I did note that, he shot some knives while raising his shield. It's also more a testament to the fact that Chiyo apparently can't feel her feet.

He shot knives at her and she didn't see them. I don't see why this wouldn't be speed related.

She was partners with Chin, the guy who is the grand master of Food Honour, and clearly uses the same techniques as the practitioners of Food Honour. It's a reach to think that her entirely similar techniques that are noted to work in the same way as Food Honour stuff does not work in the same way.

Fair enough, though it doesn't take anything away from the speed of the technique.

[1505627]

Toriko: Casually bullet times
Low level food honor monk: Casually blitz's Toriko
Toriko: Trains
Chiyo: Casually hyper blitz's mid-to-high ranking food honor monk
Toriko: Finishes training, doesn't get blitz'd by chiyo