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  1. #46
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    I never knew women have secret meetings and come to a general conclusion of whether they, as a whole gender, like something.

  2. #47
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    I never knew women have secret meetings and come to a general conclusion of whether they, as a whole gender, like something.
    Nobody has said they do :)

    Brett wanted women who read this thread to comment from a woman's perspective. Ironically, I think more men replied than women :)

  3. #48
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Nobody has said they do :)

    Brett wanted women who read this thread to comment from a woman's perspective. Ironically, I think more men replied than women :)
    There just aren't that many of us on these boards, I suppose!

  4. #49
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    I'm going to take a dissenting opinion. I don't hate the revised amazon history. It helps play up the tensions between modern world and ancient culture, which has been a good running conflict for this series. Those stories were from a time when soldiers regularly raped the women in areas they were invading, and while it is deplorable, I'm okay with it as a starting point for Diana's arc as she figure out what she wants to be in relation to where she comes from. Also as a woman and a feminist, I found Marston's depiction of amazon life too dependent on gender existentialism. I'm fine giving up the perfect society for a dated misogynistic myth a kind of fair trade as it gets rid of something I find more troubling.

    I like that this new Wonder Woman is more of and ombudsperson than an Ambassador. I think it is a more interesting, active role. I like that Diana is from her people but not of her people.

  5. #50
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrekkieGal View Post

    Does this tarnish her? No but in my perspective it does. Is Superman a bastard? Is Batman a bastard? No lets turn Wonder Woman in the the real soap-opera maven as no one truly will mind after all it's not like she is to be taken seriously as a hero.
    What does this mean? Why do you think it tarnishes her? Her origin is different, but the intent was obviously to tie her more directly into Greek Myth.
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  6. #51
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkat View Post
    There just aren't that many of us on these boards, I suppose!
    Even so it is interesting that in a thread about a woman's perspective on the book more men replied.

  7. #52
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostinFandom View Post
    It helps play up the tensions between modern world and ancient culture, which has been a good running conflict for this series. Those stories were from a time when soldiers regularly raped the women in areas they were invading, and while it is deplorable, I'm okay with it as a starting point for Diana's arc as she figure out what she wants to be in relation to where she comes from. Also as a woman and a feminist, I found Marston's depiction of amazon life too dependent on gender existentialism. I'm fine giving up the perfect society for a dated misogynistic myth a kind of fair trade as it gets rid of something I find more troubling.
    That's a great point -- I'm going to have to think more about this.

    Agreed on Marston, as much as I respect him.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Nobody has said they do :)

    Brett wanted women who read this thread to comment from a woman's perspective. Ironically, I think more men replied than women :)
    I was pointing out that women will probably have the same reactions to men in terms of variety. Say what you will about the current book but it's by no means sexist so it doesn't mean that they'll have a reason to hate it more than men.

  9. #54
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    Even so it is interesting that in a thread about a woman's perspective on the book more men replied.
    A question of comfort, perhaps? There have been ugly 'comics and female readers' threads in the past; perhaps some of us are just tired of it all.

  10. #55
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    I was pointing out that women will probably have the same reactions to men in terms of variety. Say what you will about the current book but it's by no means sexist so it doesn't mean that they'll have a reason to hate it more than men.
    You may not believe it's sexist, but others may disagree :)

  11. #56
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    I never knew women have secret meetings and come to a general conclusion of whether they, as a whole gender, like something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Nobody has said they do :)

    Brett wanted women who read this thread to comment from a woman's perspective. Ironically, I think more men replied than women :)
    Quote Originally Posted by swatkat View Post
    There just aren't that many of us on these boards, I suppose!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post
    Even so it is interesting that in a thread about a woman's perspective on the book more men replied.
    Quote Originally Posted by swatkat View Post
    A question of comfort, perhaps? There have been ugly 'comics and female readers' threads in the past; perhaps some of us are just tired of it all.
    There are actually a fair few people following on Facebook (hi guys) and some of the women there have said they were not willing to post because of experiences in the past with threads asking for womens perspectives.

    In terms of what Aquacat said, my own experience is that where you have a very large group and a very small in one in a discussion then obviously the large group tends to get most of the talking time. But also as a teacher I have seen that males, for whatever reason, often tend to dominate debate. Its not a universal truth in all circumstances but as Mecegirl point out the first page of this thread is dominated by the guys jumping in; in some cases to question why the thread exists at all seemingly. Again, thanks for Javier for his words on page 2.

    Clearly it IS that case that some women like the book and some don’t, and some are in between. I never really expected different. What I did want to focus on was why? Azzarello has made a big deal about the character being relatable to the readership. Well, should not a female character and her book be most easily relatable to women reading it? I mean, if I wrote something set Australia then Ausse readers should be able to recognbize certain idioyncricies of our culture while other readers just enjoy it. The same if I wrote a story about being a teacher. How often have we seen people come out of movies smiling and saying “That is JUST what its like.”

    But, as commented above, there seems to be a feeling that while the book is written ABOUT a woman, its not really targeted for women. Some women enjoy it, but DC is more concerned that men aged 18-34 do.

    That said, there is a common tendency in guys, when women offer their feelings on subjects like this that does not agree with the predominant male perspective, to explain that the women have misinterpreted something. Basically, any angst that they feel comes from getting it wrong. Miscommunications do occur, I agree, and they happen in both directions. But the very fact that they do should tell you something. I don’t think its profitable or even just to dismiss folks feelings about something representative of them within the story.

    And the truth is that while we might share the same city, school, or workplace the experiences of men and women are different in many ways. The point of this thread was NOT to dismiss male opinion, its just that as a man I think I and the other guys here have a much better clue on what that is. On the other hand, my understanding of female feelings in some areas has had to come from outside of myself. And that can only be accomplished from observation and, most importantly, listening.

    Perhaps in this I am old fashioned in my WW reading but I always liked the idea of the book helping the gender to both understand each other better. Not necessarily by copious exposition but by organic examples within the story. If there are guys here who don’t feel that something they need that’s okay but I still have questions and curiosity.

    Cause just because I read a comic about a woman doesn’t mean I am one, and I like learning stuff.
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  12. #57
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    I think the thread was a good idea, Brett.

    Just a question...

    I've seen it suggested on this forum that women may have, on average, a more verbal than visual learning style, and that women might therefore prefer more verbal and less visual storytelling telling (for example, more words per panel, and more exposition) than we get from Azzarello and Chiang. Do women here agree with that?

  13. #58
    Senior Member Deep_Sleeper's Avatar
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    As a guy who hasn't read any Wonder Woman comic, the Nu52 gave me an opportunity to try the book out. I mainly went in because I like Brian Azzarello's work and wanted to see what he could do with the book.

    To my surprise, it was such a great book. I love the way Cliff Chiang illustrates the book and Tony Akins is the perfect person to rotate with Cliff. I have only read the first hardcover and I am eagerly awaiting the second hardcover.
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  14. #59
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    In terms of what Aquacat said, my own experience is that where you have a very large group and a very small in one in a discussion then obviously the large group tends to get most of the talking time. But also as a teacher I have seen that males, for whatever reason, often tend to dominate debate. Its not a universal truth in all circumstances but as Mecegirl point out the first page of this thread is dominated by the guys jumping in; in some cases to question why the thread exists at all seemingly. Again, thanks for Javier for his words on page 2.
    I have seen it too, as a student and as a teacher, and I suspect a lot of it has to do with the burden of cultural conditioning that expects women to listen and not speak (in a variety of small, insidious ways).

    ...

    That said, there is a common tendency in guys, when women offer their feelings on subjects like this that does not agree with the predominant male perspective, to explain that the women have misinterpreted something. Basically, any angst that they feel comes from getting it wrong. Miscommunications do occur, I agree, and they happen in both directions. But the very fact that they do should tell you something. I don’t think its profitable or even just to dismiss folks feelings about something representative of them within the story.
    Ah, the infamous phenomenon that is (she says with her tongue-firmly-in-cheek) mansplaining! ;)



    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think the thread was a good idea, Brett.

    Just a question...

    I've seen it suggested on this forum that women may have, on average, a more verbal than visual learning style, and that women might therefore prefer more verbal and less visual storytelling telling (for example, more words per panel, and more exposition) than we get from Azzarello and Chiang. Do women here agree with that?
    That again is a difficult question to answer. While the question of visual/verbal is somewhat true in my experience, as well as the experience of many women I know, I'm not sure if it is enough scientific evidence to comment on the nature of the story being told here? I mean, I adore the way Azz and Chiang (or, say, JH III) integrate storytelling with art; I stopped reading James Robinson's JLA because of the sheer number of talky heads on every.single.panel. I'm not sure what sort of conclusions we can draw from it.

    But I will say this - I have seen posters on this very board feel that the comic needs more exposition and more words, especially from Diana herself. Given our overwhelming male population, I wonder if it's a question of gender or a simple matter expectation, that of superhero comics having a certain kind of narrative technique.

  15. #60
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    This part of the conversation could spiral into something not pretty. But as for the term "mansplaining" that Swat brought up...I have been in conversations on the internet about women's health issues and still seen self identified male posters try to talk over women. But as to discussions about comic books I think the best example of this trend is the sexualization debate. Specifically the idea that men are just as sexualized as women in superhero comics. It doesn't matter how many women have stated that they do not find the artwork appealing in that way, some guys will keep stating the opposite of what women have told them as if it were truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think the thread was a good idea, Brett.

    Just a question...

    I've seen it suggested on this forum that women may have, on average, a more verbal than visual learning style, and that women might therefore prefer more verbal and less visual storytelling telling (for example, more words per panel, and more exposition) than we get from Azzarello and Chiang. Do women here agree with that?
    I am not certain. It is said that more women read books than men, so maybe the theory is correct. However, Manga does not have a noticeably higher word to artwork ratio than American comics and it doesn't seem to turn women away.

    Personally it is about the quality of the words on the page, not the quantity. If the writing is shoddy, or if I do not like the characters voice I will put a comic down. From what I have read of the Batgirl book their is more exposition than the Wonder Woman book, but since I was not enjoying Batgirl's voice I wished that there were less words on the page.

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