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  1. #16
    I caught you red-handed Wild_Child's Avatar
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    I always thought of Wonder Woman as a gender neutral title.

  2. #17
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    I am only saying DC considers the opinions of female readers to be inconsequential. I welcome all opinions from males and females.

  3. #18
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunneler View Post
    I am only saying DC considers the opinions of female readers to be inconsequential. I welcome all opinions from males and females.
    Fair enough, but this thread isnt necessarily about what the people writing the comic think. Its what the women reading the comic think.

    And I think it is valid to ask that opinion. I am sure many folks here remember carolstrick's involvment in pointing out to the editors and writers of Marvel comics back in the 80's that they had written a story where the Avengers celebrated the fact that one of their female members [Ms Marvel] had been raped. Clearly to the mind of those involved there was no problem with the story - the men writing it were happy, the men who approved it were happy, except suddenly a woman stepped up and pointed out to them exactly what it was they had published.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild_Child View Post
    I always thought of Wonder Woman as a gender neutral title.
    In an ideal world it should be. Unfortunately we aren't in such a world.

  5. #20
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Just a note for everyone to stay to the spirit of the thread, rather than what you think the thread should be about.

    brettc1 is asking women for their thoughts about a female character, which is just as valid as asking gay men what they think about how a gay male character is being portrayed or african americans about how they think an african american character is being portrayed.

    If that isn't of interest to you, just ignore the thread and start a thread of your own regarding something you wish to talk about.

    It should come as no surprise to the regular posters here that most of the discussion occurring on the boards is between male posters. ANY thread encouraging women (or any group) to add their voice to the discussion, should be encouraged. And that can hardly happen if fellow posters initial reactions are to label those voices as inconsequential.

    Javier Velasco

  6. #21
    Insanity is colorblind Mecegirl's Avatar
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    The art is fantastic. It is the best thing about the book. I have no complaints at all.

    I was not okay with the origin change, but the change was not enough to make me drop the book. I have only heard male readers complain about the lack of a male in Diana's origin. If anyone has a different experience feel free to chime in.

    I don't mind the more "primitive" looking Amazon culture. What they wear, and what their buildings look like, have nothing to do with how they behave. With the western world's history of colonization it should be pretty clear that looking "civilized" does not mean you behave in a civil manner. I would have liked to see the Amazons behave in a "civilized" manner despite the fact that they live simply. Not full on "noble savage" but something a lot more measured than what we saw in the book.

    The sex pirate thing really dampened my excitement for the story. I would dare to say that most readers were not 100% about that change.

    I did not like Aleka. Or rather that outside of Di's mother Aleka became the example for what the Amazon's were like. If Azz had created an outspoken Philippus wanna be to give a counter point, Aleka would not have bothered me as much.

    What really killed this run for me, was that as the story wore on it began to feel as if it was written so that it would not threaten men. Mostly because of the lack of positive involvement from the goddesses and female Amazons. Maybe the female gods will have a positive impact on the story at a later point, for the moment it feels like the writer is front loading on the dudes just to keep his audience. I would prefer some balance. If I wanted to read about a woman who is strong enough to stand amongst the men I would read the Justice League.
    Last edited by Mecegirl; 12-16-2012 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #22
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    I've always known that as a female reader, my opinions/money are inconsequential to DC. This becomes clearer with every passing day, and my reading list post-new 52 has drastically reduced in size, although I cannot let go of the few titles I support, Wonder Woman being one of them. The new 52 Wonder Woman is one of the few books I have enjoyed, even with reservations, and that's largely because of the joy that is Azzarello and Chiang's Diana herself. I love the way Chiang draws her, tall and statuesque, almost imposing in her presence. I love that Azzarello gets one fundamental thing about Diana - that she's smart and she's kind; she fights smart and she fights with her heart (she is War's greatest failure). There are echoes in her of other Dianas I've loved in the past - her despair when she lost her family, for instance, reminded me of Rucka's Diana, a tragic warrior fighting for a seemingly impossible ideal in a dark world. She will, like Rucka's Diana, literally go to hell and back for one mortal life - because 'one mortal life is worth more' (the fact that she's semi-mortal now herself makes it all the more poignant). Her immense capacity for love and its significance in the storyline reminds me frequently of Perez and Simone's Dianas. The impulsiveness - mostly Azzarello - even reminds me a little of nu-Diana with pants, as much as I'd like to forget her and her story. The propensity for bad puns is a character quirk I've grown to adore, and I do like the glimmering of humour every now and then - her darker backstory has not made her a darker figure. There are things that haunt her, her childhood certainly is no longer as idyllic as it was in other incarnations, but she's not broody or prone to sitting on rooftops at night, identifying with the night - she's a bright, shining light in the world around her, and that's what I love about Wonder Woman. She lights up the world by her very presence.

    What has been less enjoyable, of course, is Azzarello's treatment of the Amazons. I have made my peace with the Zeus' daughter backstory, mostly because it does bring in a lot of juicy stories, but it does not resonate with me the way the clay origin did, even more so after Gail Simone's treatment of it in 'The Circle'. It was a fascinatingly queer origin story that has now been replaced by a somewhat more heteronormative one, and that disappoints me, as do the jabs at the queer family that Diana has been raised in. The Amazons' treatment of men (from what we've seen of them now) is horrific, and while I do not need them to be an ideal community, the fact that they seem to have been reduced to the same sort of 'misandry' (I use this word with caution, because I think it gets thrown around a little too much among us fans) that women's collectives - the Amazons themselves, in Greek history; as the absolute Other of Greek culture - have historically been accused of, is painful. I will still wait and watch for the Amazons' side of the story, but I do not like it one bit. I stayed away from the book for a couple months after #7.

    Like mecegirl above, at one point I felt the title was being overloaded by male supporting characters - I do not need an all-female supporting cast, but I do expect my female protagonists to interact with other women. Siracca's addition, as well as the increasing presence of Hera, the larger role that will be played by both Demeter and Aphrodite at some point, not to mention Athena, is somewhat heartening. My love for Strife is of course well-known in these boards, and I hope she shows up soon wreaking havoc in Diana's life - apart from Diana herself, she is probably the best thing to have come out of Azzarello's run.

    So to sum up: it's been a mixed ride, but I'm still enjoying it, which is a surprise given the current atmosphere in DC. I hope this will continue.

  8. #23
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Thanks to Mecegirl and Swatkat for sharing. And to you too, Javier :)

    Per the comments above about the supporting characters, what is the feeling on Zola?

    And, just on a tangent, picking up on the comment above that the book is targetted by DC at men aged 18-34. This presumably indicates that this demographic is somehow different to women in the same age group. So how might the book look if it were actually, as Wild Child was theorizing, more gender neutral? Are there generalities for what women would want more of? [since apparetnly DC feels they exist for the guys]
    Last edited by brettc1; 12-17-2012 at 01:40 AM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  9. #24
    Junior Member Bluewing_A23's Avatar
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    I'm not a girl, but I talked to some of my girl friends who read WW. Bear in mind that we are not from America so there are some cultural differences. Anyway, all of them said that they love the new WW. The old one is too perfect and boring.

    There are a lot of successful women out there so they rather want the books to be entertaining, rather than fill with the idea of women empowerment. They gave me some examples. You don't see singers like Beyonce, Katy Perry or even Lady Gaga talk about feminism or try to advocate it all the time. Sometime they even dress totally opposite of what feminist would wear, but they are entertaining, and by the end of the day people love them and they look up to them (some anyway).

  10. #25
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post

    And, just on a tangent, picking up on the comment above that the book is targetted by DC at men aged 18-34. This presumably indicates that this demographic is somehow different to women in the same age group. So how might the book look if it were actually, as Wild Child was theorizing, more gender neutral? Are there generalities for what women would want more of? [since apparetnly DC feels they exist for the guys]
    See, this is a difficult question to answer, solely because there are so many generalizations about 'what women want' and 'what men want', based on narrow, antiquated notions of gender roles and preferences. All women like romance and sap; all men like action and gore - that is all they like and that is all they're allowed to like, a man can't possibly enjoy action and romance, or a woman can't pick up a romance novel and enjoy things blowing up on television. And so on. I remember when a few years ago the producers of Supernatural were baffled by the fact that their show was watched by so many women. I don't personally watch the show, but I do know many, many women who enjoyed it because it involved hot men, good drama and action (stuff that we're not supposed to enjoy, according to dominant narratives about female viewers of television). I also know many women who stopped watching the show when they found that there was a level of misogyny in the show that they were uncomfortable with (this is the reason I stopped watching BBC's Merlin, for instance - when your female characters are allowed to have agency only when they are evil, you have a problem). So when you ask questions like 'what do women want in comics', we run the risk of coming to stereotypical conclusions like (say) 'well, American superhero comics is male power fantasy and women can never enjoy it', when in fact they are power fantasies that can be enjoyed by either sexes, depending on the nature of the fantasy and the individual preference of the reader. Equally important, I think, is to avoid blanket generalizations like 'women don't like graphic novels at all' (the very success of, say, manga aimed for women even among non-Japanese readers points to the same). It is a fact that a lot of women do not like comics and never will - and so won't a lot of men. Neither do all women readers - potential readers or existing readers - like the same things in their fiction, so there's no secret formula to THE comic book that will be liked by ever woman reader ever.

    But all of that aside, what would make DC comics more attractive to women readers? Very simple. Treating female characters like characters, not props to fuel the narratives of male protagonists. Letting women be front and center and do stuff, like men do. Treating female relationships (other than romantic relationships) as real and important. The reason why Dixon/Simone-era Birds of Prey is a gateway comic for many women is precisely because of these things - even with some of Dixon's really ridiculous plots, or some of Simone's less than stellar stories in Vol 2, Birds of Prey allowed women to do things and treated them like real people. What would make this comic more attractive to women readers? In this I cannot speak for all of us, because narrative preferences differ, but I for one would like to see Diana interact with more women (without the cast necessarily becoming an all-female cast!), and I would want, very much, for a clarification on the Amazon backstory, because as it stands now it's repulsive.

    I would also like DC to treat its women readers like actual readers, and recognize the fact that in this rapidly shrinking market, we are a fanbase with money and therefore it is important to market and make things accessible to women, but I realize that is too much to ask for. Apparently 'female-friendly' automatically means 'alienating for men'.
    Last edited by swatkat; 12-17-2012 at 05:38 AM.

  11. #26
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Good post and good observations Swatkat. I agree with you that there is no all-covering generalization for either gender for what they want. In fairness to Azzarello, I think in the character of Diana herself he pitches a very different idea to what Johns has so far presented in Justice League.

    I loved reading the interactions between the Birds. Some posters have mentioned a level of frustration at not seeing Diana interacting more with her mother in the 0 issue.

    Obviously in Wonder Woman Diana is going to be doing stuff and taking an active role - would that be agreed? But thinking about what you mentioned about Merlin, apart from Diana the other women in the book who are most pro-active [Hera and Strife] are both villains. Which sort of comes back to my earlier question regarding Zola?
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  12. #27
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluewing_A23 View Post
    I'm not a girl, but I talked to some of my girl friends who read WW. Bear in mind that we are not from America so there are some cultural differences. Anyway, all of them said that they love the new WW. The old one is too perfect and boring.

    There are a lot of successful women out there so they rather want the books to be entertaining, rather than fill with the idea of women empowerment. They gave me some examples. You don't see singers like Beyonce, Katy Perry or even Lady Gaga talk about feminism or try to advocate it all the time. Sometime they even dress totally opposite of what feminist would wear, but they are entertaining, and by the end of the day people love them and they look up to them (some anyway).
    That's interesting. I could be making a rash assumption but I think there are some generational factors in play there as well. That's not a bad thing, but it is food for thought.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  13. #28
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Good post and good observations Swatkat. I agree with you that there is no all-covering generalization for either gender for what they want. In fairness to Azzarello, I think in the character of Diana herself he pitches a very different idea to what Johns has so far presented in Justice League.

    I loved reading the interactions between the Birds. Some posters have mentioned a level of frustration at not seeing Diana interacting more with her mother in the 0 issue.

    Obviously in Wonder Woman Diana is going to be doing stuff and taking an active role - would that be agreed? But thinking about what you mentioned about Merlin, apart from Diana the other women in the book who are most pro-active [Hera and Strife] are both villains. Which sort of comes back to my earlier question regarding Zola?
    To be fair, most people with an active role in this series are villains so far, wether they're female or not.
    And if you say Lennox is proactive and heroic then I will have to point out Sirracca (who is the brain of the duo after all).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  14. #29
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Good post and good observations Swatkat. I agree with you that there is no all-covering generalization for either gender for what they want. In fairness to Azzarello, I think in the character of Diana herself he pitches a very different idea to what Johns has so far presented in Justice League.

    I loved reading the interactions between the Birds. Some posters have mentioned a level of frustration at not seeing Diana interacting more with her mother in the 0 issue.

    Obviously in Wonder Woman Diana is going to be doing stuff and taking an active role - would that be agreed? But thinking about what you mentioned about Merlin, apart from Diana the other women in the book who are most pro-active [Hera and Strife] are both villains. Which sort of comes back to my earlier question regarding Zola?
    Yes, the lack of interaction with her mother in #0 is quite annoying, although in this case I understand that there's a specific story he's trying to tell. I will probably feel better about it once Athena does come into play in the narrative, but so far I've missed her interaction with the female gods as well.

    It's a little difficult to answer your question re. the goddesses as villains, because I don't really see the gods and goddesses as good OR evil - they are simply oblivious to human morality, and operate on a different plane. But I would, at some point, like to see more human female characters who are not evil (although for that we would need more human characters!). Zola has been an interesting addition to Diana's supporting cast, but there still needs to be more to her story (other than her pregnancy!) for me to get into her character. This is where the Amazon supporting cast/the Wonder Girls are really missed as far as I'm concerned.

  15. #30
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Most of you have seen my opinion posted elsewhere, but I'll repeat them here for the sake of the topic as well as for those who haven't read my opinion.

    On Chiang's art - I like it. It's stylized and different, which is a breath of fresh air, and he draws a tall, regal Diana. I could do with a little less blood, tho' (I don't mean less bloodshed, but less pools/rivers/buckets/coated in blood shots. I don't need that much to get the point ;) )

    On Azzarello's Diana - I like how he writes her. I do think he gets the core of the character - the compassion, the love, the strength and the nobility. However, I don't get enough of her in the book for my liking. Eight pages of Diana in the last issue just doesn't do it for me, especially at this stage.

    On Azzarello's supporting cast - This is where he loses me and where I almost dropped the book. I find his treatment of her origins and of the Amazons to be deplorable and the changes to be unnecessary. Every story could have worked so far without making the Amazons into primitive murdering sex pirates, without changing the clay origin, without Diana being just one of may children on the island, without Hippolyta being an adulteress, etc.

    I do like the way he writes the new gods, but I also think they take up too much space in the book, too often (but not always) giving it an ensemble feel that I don't appreciate in the only solo WW title.

    As a woman who grew up in the 60s and 70s, there was a dearth of female role models for me I liked playing ice hockey and baseball, I preferred to play with action toys rather than Barbies, and I hate skirts with a passion ;) I discovered Emma Peel on PBS about the same time I spotted Wonder Woman on a magazine rack along with seeing her on the cover of JLA. I was floored. Women? Kicking butt? Not just arm candy screaming to be rescued and fainting every time they were faced with adversity?

    Diana and the Amazons were a huge influence in my life at a time when, as I pointed out, girls weren't allowed to play games with the boys. My sister was, as far as we know, the first girl in the US to play boy's little league (they gave credit to another girl a year later because she had to go to court. My sister didn't - she was just the best pitcher in the coaches had ever seen ;) )

    Point is, Diana's power came from Diana and from the Amazons, and, later, as gifts from the goddesses and Hermes. Women showing little girls like me that you can stand on your own two feet, do it proudly and do it well. Azzarello, in my eyes, has shattered that. The Amazons aren't enlightened (I can deal with there being Amazon villains and a lack of that perfection that seems to be so troubling to so many, but we haven't seen any Amazons that aren't 'dirtied up', so to speak). Now Diana's power comes from an unoriginal origin (bastard daughter of Zeus, formerly the origin/source of powers of her sidekick) and just about every trace of female empowerment has been stripped.

    As to Zola, I like her well enough, but she's a bit two-dimensional. She doesn't do anything other than carry a baby, get kidnapped twice, have a baby, have the baby kidnapped. She and the baby are more a Macguffin than characters so far.

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