Luthor, completely self made or from old money?

[misslane38]

Smallville...better...than Elliot Maggin?

I never said Maggin was better than Smallville. Go ahead. Quote the line where I said that. You won't find it. I said Lex Luthor on Smallville had more layered reasons to hate Clark/Superman than the reasons Maggin provided. That's it. That's all I said. I didn't say more layered was better. I just said it was more complex because it was. Try reading a little closer next time before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

[Auguste Dupin]

I never said Maggin was better than Smallville. Go ahead. Quote the line where I said that. You won't find it. I said Lex Luthor on Smallville had more layered reasons to hate Clark/Superman than the reasons Maggin provided. That's it. That's all I said. I didn't say more layered was better. I just said it was more complex because it was. Try reading a little closer next time before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

Personally I prefer Maggin's explanation. Smallville's version doesn't feel "more layered" or complex to me so much as more "soapish".
I just think Maggin's is more spot on to the core of who Luthor is: someone who would have become the more powerful man on Earth (wether it's in a good or a bad way mostly depends on ther version) if it wasn't for Superman (someone he must feels to be a very unfair competition, overpowered alien and all that). It can be linked down to people like Caesar, who is known to have said "I prefer to be the leader in a small city than a second in Rome" (more or less). Luthor should have been our generation's Caesar, or Einstein, or Bill Gates, depending on the version. But Superman prevented it simply by existing. In a way, Luthor's only goal is to be the best there is (although he ain't no Wolverine). It's all about himself, about proving himself. He was born to be the best, or so he believes. So, in a way, I find the idea that Luthor became a criminal because it's the only thing Superman won't do better than him to be pretty much perfect.
While Smallville's strikes me more as a something they came up with to have cheap emotion, in a "if only you had trusted me" kind of way, and overall as kind of......common, I guess.

[misslane38]

While Smallville's strikes me more as a something they came up with to have cheap emotion, in a "if only you had trusted me" kind of way, and overall as kind of......common, I guess.

Smallville's take was more complex because it included the power envy component plus lots of other ideas. It was also Cain vs. Abel and Hamlet. It was power envy, betrayal, and genuine fear. It was everything Maggin did plus more, which doesn't make it a better story per se, it just makes it more complicated. Maggin was much better with execution than Smallville. So, despite have the building blocks of something more substantive, it squandered it with bad plots and dialogue.

[adkal]

I prefer 'a bit of both' - initially raised in wealth but then 'booted out' in order to make his own way, surpassing and, eventually, enveloping/absorbing those around him.

His initial upbringing provides the foundation of his education etc but after being 'booted out' he goes 'off the radar' (taking on another identity) before coming back and revealing his numerous successes and unveiling his 'new' company (really a holding/umbrella company): LexCorp.

The press conference announces that the (multi-million-dollar) companies behind:

- three new jet fighters
- the engines used in the new commercial planes
- treatment for seventeen forms of cancer
- landmine detectors
- treatments for various skin disorders

etc

are all established by this one man, and his work and research...

[Auguste Dupin]

Smallville's take was more complex because it included the power envy component plus lots of other ideas. It was also Cain vs. Abel and Hamlet. It was power envy, betrayal, and genuine fear. It was everything Maggin did plus more, which doesn't make it a better story per se, it just makes it more complicated. Maggin was much better with execution than Smallville. So, despite have the building blocks of something more substantive, it squandered it with bad plots and dialogue.

But Maggin isn't just about power envy. Hell, in a way you could argue it is not about power envy at all. Luthor doesn't want Superman powers (or at least, he doesn't want them for the sake of having them), he wants to prove he is the most powerful man on Earth, despite the fact that deep down, he knows it's not the case. He only envy Superman in the sense that he believes he should be at his place. It's about a complex of inferiority and how a person plagues by this can try to overcompensate. It's about a selfish person trying to appear as selfless because he can't bear his own flaws. It's the geek versus the jock. It's also about the irony of him not seeing that he could be much more important and beloved than Superman ever will be if he used his own knowledge for the sake of mankind instead of trying to settle a score with Superman that nobody but him considers relevant. It's about a potential wasted by sheer pettyness.

[misslane38]

But Maggin isn't just about power envy. Hell, in a way you could argue it is not about power envy at all. Luthor doesn't want Superman powers (or at least, he doesn't want them for the sake of having them), he wants to prove he is the most powerful man on Earth, despite the fact that deep down, he knows it's not the case. He only envy Superman in the sense that he believes he should be at his place. It's about a complex of inferiority and how a person plagues by this can try to overcompensate. It's about a selfish person trying to appear as selfless because he can't bear his own flaws. It's the geek versus the jock. It's also about the irony of him not seeing that he could be much more important and beloved than Superman ever will be if he used his own knowledge for the sake of mankind instead of trying to settle a score with Superman that nobody but him considers relevant. It's about a potential wasted by sheer pettyness.

I get that. What I'm saying is that Smallville did that and added even more to it. The reason for Lex's antipathy towards Clark on the show was borne out of an inferiority complex plus personal betrayal, plus daddy issues, and finally plus a little bit of love triangle. It was fear of aliens, competing savior complexes, and ultimately pettiness. It was everything Maggin did and more.

[Lexrules]

Could I choose neither and say Mad Scientist Lex who's stole all the money he needed for the sole purpose of building a machine to Kill Superman.

[Daybreak_st]

I get that. What I'm saying is that Smallville did that and added even more to it. The reason for Lex's antipathy towards Clark on the show was borne out of an inferiority complex plus personal betrayal, plus daddy issues, and finally plus a little bit of love triangle. It was fear of aliens, competing savior complexes, and ultimately pettiness. It was everything Maggin did and more.

I agree. The only part I feel Smallville really squandered was the love triangle. That was garbage. there was no reason for it. It reduced the complexity of their ideological views into fighting over a girl...an irritating girl at that. It just took something special away from both characters. In particular it made Lex a very uncompelling character during the entire love arc with lana, faking the pregnancy...garbage, garbage, garbage. Before that their upbringings, viewpoints, ideologies, etc was at the center their breach. It felt a little more like Professor X and Magneto. I could actually see in that context how Lex could know Clark was Superman but never use it against him or as a bargaining chip. It would be the one card he'd always hold close to the chest. Deep down they were brothers but with very different view points. Clark loves lex and wants to redeem him while Lex wants to prove himself better than clark etc. "Our friendship will be the stuff of legend". Great foreshadowing.

[misslane38]

I agree. The only part I feel Smallville really squandered was the love triangle. That was garbage. there was no reason for it. It reduced the complexity of their ideological views into fighting over a girl...an irritating girl at that. It just took something special away from both characters. In particular it made Lex a very uncompelling character during the entire love arc with lana, faking the pregnancy...garbage, garbage, garbage. Before that their upbringings, viewpoints, ideologies, etc was at the center their breach. It felt a little more like Professor X and Magneto. I could actually see in that context how Lex could know Clark was Superman but never use it against him or as a bargaining chip. It would be the one card he'd always hold close to the chest. Deep down they were brothers but with very different view points. Clark loves lex and wants to redeem him while Lex wants to prove himself better than clark etc. "Our friendship will be the stuff of legend". Great foreshadowing.

I wasn't fond of the love triangle either. There were moments that it worked okay, but the fake pregnancy was the worst and overall it was even more soap opera than the myth needed. They tried to foreshadow the storyline, and place it in a more exalted context like they often did using Biblical or ancient mythical/historical allusions, in the Season 5 episode "Exposed" where Clark and Lex discussed King David:

Lex: Tell me what you remember about King David. Humor me.
Clark: King David... Slew Goliath, saved his people.
Lex: And afterward, he saw a beautiful woman bathing and fell madly in love. The problem was, she turned out to be his best friend's wife. So you know what our great hero did? He sent his best friend off to die in battle so he could have her to himself.
Clark: Kind of leave that part out, don't they?
Lex: We all need to believe in heroes, Clark, and even the best ones are far from perfect.

[Ironman2978]

I personally think they got that love triangle from that Superman TAS episode where Lana and Lex were dating and Clark was warning her how dangerous Luthor was. It wasn't the best Lana episode but it wasn't the worst.

[Kurosawa]

I never said Maggin was better than Smallville. Go ahead. Quote the line where I said that. You won't find it. I said Lex Luthor on Smallville had more layered reasons to hate Clark/Superman than the reasons Maggin provided. That's it. That's all I said. I didn't say more layered was better. I just said it was more complex because it was. Try reading a little closer next time before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

Sorry, just the very idea of anyone taking something as lame as Smallville so seriously is amazing to me.

But Maggin isn't just about power envy. Hell, in a way you could argue it is not about power envy at all. Luthor doesn't want Superman powers (or at least, he doesn't want them for the sake of having them), he wants to prove he is the most powerful man on Earth, despite the fact that deep down, he knows it's not the case. He only envy Superman in the sense that he believes he should be at his place. It's about a complex of inferiority and how a person plagues by this can try to overcompensate. It's about a selfish person trying to appear as selfless because he can't bear his own flaws. It's the geek versus the jock. It's also about the irony of him not seeing that he could be much more important and beloved than Superman ever will be if he used his own knowledge for the sake of mankind instead of trying to settle a score with Superman that nobody but him considers relevant. It's about a potential wasted by sheer pettyness.

Precisely.

I get that. What I'm saying is that Smallville did that and added even more to it. The reason for Lex's antipathy towards Clark on the show was borne out of an inferiority complex plus personal betrayal, plus daddy issues, and finally plus a little bit of love triangle. It was fear of aliens, competing savior complexes, and ultimately pettiness. It was everything Maggin did and more.

Meh, soap opera crap vs philosophical debate and personal issues. I hate love triangles and Maggin did much more with much less. I'm not a fan of overblown pretension.

[misslane38]

Sorry, just the very idea of anyone taking something as lame as Smallville so seriously is amazing to me.

Smallville was a problematic show with many questionable elements. I've said so as much several times, which you seem to repeatedly ignore for some reason. I'm sure you realize the difference between pointing out how Smallville did something more complex with its Clark/Lex relationship than Maggin did is not tantamount to arguing the show was a work of pure genius.

Meh, soap opera crap vs philosophical debate and personal issues. I hate love triangles and Maggin did much more with much less. I'm not a fan of overblown pretension.

Maggin did the love triangle crap, too. One of the other reasons Maggin provides for Lex's hatred for Superman was the fact that he lost Lois to Superman. He created a pheromone that would attract a human female to an alien male, and that is what led Lois to leave Lex for Superman. Lex's reasons for hating Clark on Smallville were not based solely on soap opera. They included a love triangle, yes, but the same underlying issues Maggin drew upon for his story were part of the show's narrative along with other serious concepts.

[stk]

Sorry, just the very idea of anyone taking something as lame as Smallville so seriously is amazing to me.

While Maggin does represent the pinnacle of the Superman mythos to me, I do think you seriously underrate Smallville.

[Lexrules]

While Maggin does represent the pinnacle of the Superman mythos to me, I do think you seriously underrate Smallville.

I think after the 4th season when he left High School they lost their way. Not sure if they thought the show would last that long or just did not know where to go with it. They should have in that case followed the books, Had Clark go to Metropolis University and meet Lori Lemaris. Have him there for a few years and get a internship at The Daily Planet where he would meet Lois Lane.

The path they took just never worked for me and always felt making it up week after week.

[Mr. Holmes]

The 5th season was pretty good until Jonathan Kent died. Then the show went to hell and never recovered.

Season 8 was pretty good except for the Doomsday finale which they phoned in. Season 9 is probably my favorite overall. 10 was really uneven. They did the Superman stuff fine in the finale, but the Darkseid handling was horrible.