Should the 2nd amendment (Right to Bear Arms) be Abolished?

**Shikidum** · 12-31-2012, 01:01 PM

Like Kill Lists.

**Monty_Cristo** · 12-31-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Clarkie

It sometimes seems like folks in the US equate owning a handgun with owning the Ultimate Nullifier.

no one can own Chuck Norris.

**thwhtGuardian** · 12-31-2012, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by The Black Guardian

People wouldn't be fearful of their countrymen or government if there weren't an extremely good reason for it.

There really isn't, and if there genuinely was then owning a gun wouldn't help you out all that much.

**carabas** · 12-31-2012, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian

There really isn't, and if there genuinely was then owning a gun wouldn't help you out all that much.

Well, there is a good reason to be fearful of his countrymen: a not negligible percentage of them seem to be madmen with guns. But as you say, getting a gun yourself doesn't really help with that.

**Iangould** · 12-31-2012, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Black Guardian

People wouldn't be fearful of their countrymen or government if there weren't an extremely good reason for it.

Yeah, people are never afraid of things for irrational reasons.

Like, I'm sure the Tea Party wouldn't be terrified that Obama was plotting to steal their gun so whites would be unable to defend themselves during the coming race war if there wasn't some rational, factual basis for it.

**JaggedFel** · 12-31-2012, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Iangould

Yeah, people are never afraid of things for irrational reasons.

Like, I'm sure the Tea Party wouldn't be terrified that Obama was plotting to steal their gun so whites would be unable to defend themselves during the coming race war if there wasn't some rational, factual basis for it.

Lol so true

**Valerie** · 12-31-2012, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by king mob

I've yet to see one gun supporter actually consider the full implications of a better mental healthcare system in the US would be a fully socialised system of healthcare like the NHS, so you either support a system where everyone gets a good standard of healthcare, and you properly invest in care, you you pay vague lip service to an idea to throw people off the basic idea of reducing weapons in your society.

It's not 'evil'. That's spurious black and white thinking.

This isn't about violent crime as you mean it, but making sure you're not burying children again because people like you have no intention of dealing with the results of that.

Really?

We've not had guns in centuries. Do you have any idea how crime in reported in all areas of the UK or what is classified now as a violent crime? And oh, how many deaths by firearm has the UK had compared to the US by percentage of population?
.

As a health care provider, I'm not confident that socialized health care means better health care. I know people from the UK who've had to wait and fight years for surgeries they've needed. Better health care means health care available when people need it, with minimal hassle.

As for evil, what else do you call it when someone of sound mind decides to murder, steal, or rape? And what do you call it when you interfere with others' ability to defend themselves against such crimes? This is about violent crime, and it's easier to arm and train a school administrator or provide sufficient police protection to schools than it is to pass a bunch of laws intent on disarming people who have no regard for the law.

Of course the UK has a lower rate of firearms death, but a higher rate of murders committed without firearms. Or or murders by stabbing or strangulation somehow not as bad as murders by firearms?

**thehod** · 12-31-2012, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Valerie

As a health care provider, I'm not confident that socialized health care means better health care. I know people from the UK who've had to wait and fight years for surgeries they've needed. Better health care means health care available when people need it, with minimal hassle.

As for evil, what else do you call it when someone of sound mind decides to murder, steal, or rape? And what do you call it when you interfere with others' ability to defend themselves against such crimes? This is about violent crime, and it's easier to arm and train a school administrator or provide sufficient police protection to schools than it is to pass a bunch of laws intent on disarming people who have no regard for the law.

Of course the UK has a lower rate of firearms death, but a higher rate of murders committed without firearms. Or or murders by stabbing or strangulation somehow not as bad as murders by firearms?

Missing the point in a spectacular fashion.

This isn't about solving violent crime, but about reducing the instances and magnitude of spree killings, which almost universally involve firearms, and are beginning to happen in the US with alarming regularity. Mentioning knife crime, or murder rates is an attempt to obfuscate the debate in to subjects that whilst linked, are actually not what anyone has been talking about.

The point is that gun control, it is suggested, would reduce the severity and the regularity of spree killings, and as a by product would also put a dent in the number of murders committed with firearms, not that gun control would magically remove violent death from society. But it would reduce it.

And that seems to be the main thrust of the argument from the pro-gun crowd, that the solution offered isn't perfect so therefore shouldn't be followed.

I'll ignore the comments of healthcare to stop any thread drift, but remind me to tell you about my five year old son and his experiences with socialised healthcare sometime, and you'll understand why, on this subject, you're talking out of your ass.

**Nick Soapdish** · 12-31-2012, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Valerie

As a health care provider, I'm not confident that socialized health care means better health care. I know people from the UK who've had to wait and fight years for surgeries they've needed. Better health care means health care available when people need it, with minimal hassle.

I know people in the US with what are supposed to be good insurance plans that have the same problem. Socialized medicine doesn't mean that everybody gets unlimited free health care. There will have to be some level of rationing - which of course means death panels.

Sorry, hod.

**Shikidum** · 01-01-2013, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Iangould

Yeah, people are never afraid of things for irrational reasons.

Like, I'm sure the Tea Party wouldn't be terrified that Obama was plotting to steal their gun so whites would be unable to defend themselves during the coming race war if there wasn't some rational, factual basis for it.

I am not sure about race war, but under certain circumstances he would have no problem becoming a dictator.