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Thread: Birthright

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Fury View Post
    Good for the most part but I do feel like it started to drag towards the end. The invasion was an "ehhh" moment. Loved Yu's art and Clark traveling the world.
    I think an actual invasion would've been better or some other equally large scale disaster would've been more fitting. But I thought the twist ending was interesting with him telling his parents he made it moments before they died. Bitter sweet.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    A total misunderstanding of how comics worked. Of course there was a "reset button". Back in the day kids were not supposed to read those comics for years. So no one bothered.

    Growth and change is also a very fishy thing for a character who appears(ed) in multiple stories a month written by different writers.

    Just saying.


    That's a good point. Dispite all the so called character growth now characters essentially stay the same or are reset periodically anyway. At least back then they didn't have to worry as much with continuity etc. The stories were good/fun and self contained. If you didn't like it, just move on the next story. Simpler times.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    It's definitely my favorite origin story, although as previously mentioned they don't quite stick the landing, and I also had some issues with Pa Kent.

    I get what they were going for, and Pa's misunderstanding of the situation (thinking Superman was a replacement identity, not an additional one) was great, but the execution was a bit off imo.

  4. #34
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    A total misunderstanding of how comics worked. Of course there was a "reset button". Back in the day kids were not supposed to read those comics for years. So no one bothered.
    No, that's not a misunderstanding. That's exactly how comics worked. They had a reset button, which allowed for very little growth or development. It worked for kids and it was the reason why the Silver Age had some great storytelling (it wasn't bogged down in bloated continuity), but it's still the reason why the characters and narratives rarely ever evolved. The reset button made the characters and their mythologies, on the whole, pretty stagnant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    That's a good point. Dispite all the so called character growth now characters essentially stay the same or are reset periodically anyway. At least back then they didn't have to worry as much with continuity etc. The stories were good/fun and self contained. If you didn't like it, just move on the next story. Simpler times.
    A reset button every 20+ years is not the same as a reset button every issue. Characters grow in modern comics; it just happens at a slow rate. But at least it happens.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    No, that's not a misunderstanding. That's exactly how comics worked. They had a reset button, which allowed for very little growth or development. It worked for kids and it was the reason why the Silver Age had some great storytelling (it wasn't bogged down in bloated continuity), but it's still the reason why the characters and narratives rarely ever evolved. The reset button made the characters and their mythologies, on the whole, pretty stagnant.



    A reset button every 20+ years is not the same as a reset button every issue. Characters grow in modern comics; it just happens at a slow rate. But at least it happens.
    It's more like every other story arc if it changes hands between writers. Look at the crap they threw at Superman with new krypton, the death of all his people then grounded. Really a disjointed mess. Each writer comes in an ignores what just came before. Now when you get a writer to stay on for a few years you may have actual character growth but if now the character simply gets reset with the next story arc.

  6. #36
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    It's more like every other story arc if it changes hands between writers. Look at the crap they threw at Superman with new krypton, the death of all his people then grounded. Really a disjointed mess. Each writer comes in an ignores what just came before. Now when you get a writer to stay on for a few years you may have actual character growth but if now the character simply gets reset with the next story arc.
    Superman wasn't reset after WoNK. His walking tour of America was a direct response to the consequences of World of New Krypton.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    No, that's not a misunderstanding. That's exactly how comics worked. They had a reset button, which allowed for very little growth or development. It worked for kids and it was the reason why the Silver Age had some great storytelling (it wasn't bogged down in bloated continuity), but it's still the reason why the characters and narratives rarely ever evolved. The reset button made the characters and their mythologies, on the whole, pretty stagnant.
    But that's not a fault. It exactly what they had to do.


    A reset button every 20+ years is not the same as a reset button every issue. Characters grow in modern comics; it just happens at a slow rate. But at least it happens.
    They don't grow. It's just that every writers tends to write them differently. The idea that superheroes that are appearing monthly can really "grow" in a plausible matter is just an illusion. It's an insane thing to think. To be honest, you wouldn't even want it.

  8. #38
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    But that's not a fault. It exactly what they had to do.
    I get that. But because they had to do it, the characters didn't grow or evolve in a realistic way.

    They don't grow. It's just that every writers tends to write them differently. The idea that superheroes that are appearing monthly can really "grow" in a plausible matter is just an illusion. It's an insane thing to think. To be honest, you wouldn't even want it.
    They do grow. Over the course of the entire Post-Crisis era, for instance, Lois Lane grew and evolved as a character. I'd also appreciate you not deciding for me or anyone else what we might want from a comic. I do expect and want at least some character growth and continuity in my comics even if it is a slow process. Even over the course of the New 52 thus far, characters like Superman and Lois have evolved from their beginnings in their first chronological appearance in Action Comics #0. The past does influence the present and the future, in other words. And it should. If a hero like Superman cannot be shown to learn from experiences and mistakes or to deal with emotional experiences in a plausible way, then comics and the characters they contain are shallow, hallow creatures indeed.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Superman wasn't reset after WoNK. His walking tour of America was a direct response to the consequences of World of New Krypton.
    Not until JMS left the story arc and the replacement writer tried to make sense of it. Before that WONK was relatively ignored as Superman was more concerned about "reconnecting with America" instead of morning the loss of his entire civilization for a 2nd time.

  10. #40
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    Not until JMS left the story arc and the replacement writer tried to make sense of it. Before that WONK was relatively ignored as Superman was more concerned about "reconnecting with America" instead of morning the loss of his entire civilization for a 2nd time.
    The walk across America -- reconnecting with the country -- was an activity that from the start was explicitly tied to Superman's time on New Krypton. Superman was reconnecting with America, getting in touch with the Earth as Jonathan called it, because had been away for so long.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I get that. But because they had to do it, the characters didn't grow or evolve in a realistic way.
    There is no realistic way for monthly comics characters to evolve. How is that going to look like? Sooner or later you'll run in circles.

    How do you think that's going to look? Superman from 1938 to this day... it wouldn't even be realistic to grow that much since real people don't really change.
    Last edited by Van Cleaf; 12-18-2012 at 02:19 PM.

  12. #42
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Cleaf View Post
    There is no realistic way for monthly comics characters to evolve. How is that going to look like? Sooner or later you'll run in circles.
    No, sooner or later, you reboot. You start telling the story again for the next generation in a new way.

    How do you think that's going to look? Superman from 1938 to this day... it wouldn't even be realistic to grow that much since real people don't really change.
    People change in response to the events in their lives and as a result of growing up. A Superman who is just beginning his career as a hero in Metropolis should be written differently than a Superman who is five years or ten years into his career. He should be more mature, be wiser, and have developed more complex relationships with the people in his life. When the character has learned and grown as much as seems necessary -- when all stories of based off a particular incarnation of a character dry up -- start over. Tell the story again with the essence of the past embedded in the new myth yet with adaptations that accommodate the social, cultural, and other interests of contemporary audiences.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The walk across America -- reconnecting with the country -- was an activity that from the start was explicitly tied to Superman's time on New Krypton. Superman was reconnecting with America, getting in touch with the Earth as Jonathan called it, because had been away for so long.
    I'm not arguing that's how it turned out, but if you look back at the interviews with JMS before he started his run he said very little about New Krypton blowing up and that being the motivation. His perspective was more that Superman as a character needed to reconnect with people in general and he thought that making him walk through America would get people interested in the comic again. I think regardless of how New Krypton ended JMS had this vision of how to make Superman popular again was by showing him literally walking to towns and helping people. It wasn't until the replacement writer came along that he decided to overtly show how New Krypton was the true motivation for his walk.

    Maybe JMS had the same idea all along, I don't know but based on interviews he doesn't really reference New Krypton as the reason he decided that Superman needs to walk just that Superman has spent too much time disconnected from the common man etc.

    Here's the interview:
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=26832
    Last edited by Daybreak_st; 12-19-2012 at 07:55 AM.

  14. #44
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    I'm not arguing that's how it turned out, but if you look back at the interviews with JMS before he started his run he said very little about New Krypton blowing up and that being the motivation. His perspective was more that Superman as a character needed to reconnect with people in general and he thought that making him walk through America would get people interested in the comic again. I think regardless of how New Krypton ended JMS had this vision of how to make Superman popular again was by showing him literally walking to towns and helping people. It wasn't until the replacement writer came along that he decided to overtly show how New Krypton was the true motivation for his walk.

    Maybe JMS had the same idea all along, I don't know but based on interviews he doesn't really reference New Krypton as the reason he decided that Superman needs to walk just that Superman has spent too much time disconnected from the common man etc.

    Here's the interview:
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=26832
    Why look to just the interviews? I'm looking at the actual story. Clark, within the pages of the comics, decided to walk across America because he felt he needed to reconnect with the country and its people. It all started with a distraught woman chastising him for using his time to save New Krypton -- his own people -- rather than save people like her late husband. That was the spark that started the walk.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Why look to just the interviews? I'm looking at the actual story. Clark, within the pages of the comics, decided to walk across America because he felt he needed to reconnect with the country and its people. It all started with a distraught woman chastising him for using his time to save New Krypton -- his own people -- rather than save people like her late husband. That was the spark that started the walk.
    Oh I get that. I never meant to say he was literally rebooted after new krypton but that the natural follow up to that story was ignored in favor of Grounded. A story about him trying to reconnect with America which felt very forced instead of the natural character growth after seeing your whole civilization destroyed for a second time.

    I know that the story line was connected specifically by the replacement writer. My whole point is that once a comic switches writers often the natural development of a character is changed or even stifled because the next writer switches gears in a favor of a completely different story etc. I feel like that's what happened with Grounded. Over in Supergirl we got to see her natural reaction to what happened, it provided some genuine character growth. With Superman there's this complete switch in focus, some woman slaps him and goes off walking across America?! From internal story logic it made no sense to me. It was motivated by external factors like JMS' personal view of how to make the character relevant again. External factors like those will always be the deciding factor for if a character undergoes genuine growth or is simply reset for the next writer to tell his story arc.

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