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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    I thought you guys meant the Peter David comic.
    I wish. Because Superboy in YJ cartoon is basically Johns Superboy without TTK and another departure in character.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    The only mainstream appeal Superboy has is in other forms of media where they don't have to stick to his comic roots anyway. As a comic fan I've lived in a number of cities, nobody really talked about him in the comic shops. The posters I've seen discussing him here were aware of him in 1996, no one that came to the character after Johns. I'd be interested if there was some kinda sales data indicating that Johns' origin had a positive effect on the books in which he was featured.
    From 1993-2003, Superboy was intro'd with six issues in Adventures of Superman, 102 issues in his own series and the longest running spinoff of Reign of the Supermen, a spinoff series that lasted 19 issues, 61 appearances as a lead in a 75 issue team book and appeared in several one shots, 3 annuals, 5 issues based on team up books, focus on DC vs Marvel and two issue spinoffs, and consistent appearances in Superman books and around the DCU in titles like Legion, Batgirl, and others. Compare that to post-Johns and it's not even a contest.

    I was one of the people who was very much aware of him in 1993 onward. That's why I felt the way I felt about the retcons. It wasn't about "hardheadedness" or "not accepting a so-called iconic concept" or whatever. It was about someone just wiping a character wholesale with no regard for what was established just to shoehorn something that the character was never about or represented. It's like making Johnny Storm an emo goth whose powers came from the iconic Doctor Doom.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Like I said I think Westfield should be irrelevant. You were right in calling him obscure, where Lex isn't. He has to matter, or why bother? It's not HIS if he's not relevant.
    When it comes to Superboy the character, Superboy was and should be the sole focus just like Kal-El as Superboy was the focus. The whole "donor" thing, which some are focused on instead of the actual character itself, was neither the defining element nor the focal point. Superboy's entire DNA pattern was changed by issue 41 and it wasn't even much of Westfield in there (something Titans forgot). They focused on the prime plot point..."Cadmus created a clone based on Superman and he had his adventures". That is what the character was built on.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Because I'd hate to think Luthor's master plan is to call Superman out on a talk show paternity.
    This was Lex's "bold plan" from the TT comic and no fanfiction-esque answers like I read before as explanations:

    "I've studied him for years. I know more about the alien than anyone on earth. Kryptonite and magic will hurt him - but that's not what will destroy him. It never will be. You have to reach deeper to find something he loves. Or create something he will love. He loves his boy. And when his boy turns against the Justice League's children, when Superman buries those coffins.. Well, that.. that will kill him. You are my greatest invention. The genetic material I gave you. The programming I implanted inside you. All under Westfield's nose. His ambitions were shallow. Mine are righteous."

    That made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Not just the fact that about a good 20+ things from the comic itself pretty much invalidated that nonsensical plan. It wasn't about "corrupting Superman's DNA" or other etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    C-Dot saw it more as a brother than offspring, but if you took the DNA of Clark and Lois to create a being...what would you see it as?
    I see it that way because cloning is basically copying and it is not the same as reproductive cells creating sons and daughters. It's replicating and making a duplicate of the product of two parents, not making the product a parent (see Dolly the sheep and so on). If you take Lois and Clark's DNA and clone them into one being, you get a clone of them. If you took their reproductive cells (by extracting or even cloning them) and altered them to combine into one being, you get the counterpart of a son or daughter of Lois and Clark (see Cir-El's "story" on how she was Clark and Lois's daughter through Kryptonian science). "Clone" has its own classification. That doesn't mean a clone couldn't be raised as a son (Jango/Boba). Kon and Kal always had a brother relationship and the character who was the closest thing to Superboy's dad was Dubbilex.

    Match was cloned from Superboy, but he wasn't Superboy's son. Bizarro Superboy was an actual hybrid that proved human DNA couldn't stabilize Kryptonian DNA, but he wasn't Westfield's kid. Ben Reilly was cloned from Peter Parker, but he wasn't Pete's son. Nate Grey wasn't a hybrid clone of Scott and Jean, but made from their genetic material and Cable's counterpart.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Idea wise, Superman's greatest enemy mixing their DNA, and then the dodgy Lex side/Clark side business aren't up there for me. And again, I wonder just how much it's done for the actual character.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    I also forgot to say, it's really hard trying to take the idea seriously knowing that it's just some fan twist some guy came up with and forced through even though it'd been rejected in the character's better times.
    And that's pretty much one of the big ones to me. This was someone's fan idea that had zip to do with the book, pushed many times, and not based on anything established. If this was in Kesel's run and someone goes "Superboy is the clone of Lex and Superman", I'd look at him funny because nothing in the books ever said that or supported that. From Lex not knowing and wanting Superman to stay dead to "hybrid clone = Bizarro" in Superboy Annual #2 to Superman being unable to be cloned to "anything cloned from Lex's clone body would be dead" (Fall of Metropolis crossover) and so on, I'd think the kid didn't read much of Superboy before. That's why the editor rejected Johns' fan letter when he suggested it. When I read that "Family Tree" pitch that was rejected, it read like he didn't know much of Superboy or the characters either. And in TT #1, same thing.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-19-2012 at 07:13 AM.

  2. #92
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    why is ppl not talking more about superman#15? Kon meets lex,thats awesome ppl,i cant wait to sit back and watch these two,its gonna be great.
    It would be hard for me to talk about a specific comic book I no longer buy now that Lobdell is writing it. And this crossover has caused me to give up Supergirl as well, because it doesn't look like I can just read her title anymore and enjoy it (at least not until H'el on Earth stops polluting its pages).

    I keep showing up here and hoping I'll hear encouraging news, but so far I haven't.
    Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    When it comes to Superboy the character, Superboy was and should be the sole focus just like Kal-El as Superboy was the focus. The whole "donor" thing, which some are focused on instead of the actual character itself, was neither the defining element nor the focal point. Superboy's entire DNA pattern was changed by issue 41 and it wasn't even much of Westfield in there (something Titans forgot). They focused on the prime plot point..."Cadmus created a clone based on Superman and he had his adventures". That is what the character was built on.
    Yeah I always felt the whole point of the Westfield reveal was that the donor doesn't matter period.

  4. #94
    Elder Member zryson's Avatar
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    The old Superboy was one of my fave superheroes but this new 52 Superboy is dull by comparison. The stories un-engaging and the artwork average at best.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah I always felt the whole point of the Westfield reveal was that the donor doesn't matter period.
    When given the choice of something mattering or not mattering, it seems like "mattering" is usually more interesting. Almost by definition.

  6. #96
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    I guess it depends on how much you care, with varies person to person.

  7. #97
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    the kesel SB book was superior in quality by far than anythiing after it,but i really did like the (totally rebooted) idea of lex being his donor,course imo geoff went the wrong direction with that news.the nudcu SB has a great chance to get this right,and superman#15 will actually be a good testing ground for this,when kon meets lex.i would not ever and i mean ever have SB emo about his donors again,never.kon imo has lexs attitude and attitude with supermans being a hero,which should open the door for issues with both.im not a fan of lex being in.prison,i like.my lex running lexcorp,and getting away with murder,kinda how he was in the YJ episode "agendas",SB knew he was bad,but not completley without merit.kon should.fight with both lex and kal,about right and wrong,and the methods taken to that end.

    third donor hopefully will throw a huge monkey wrench in his life,im hoping its someone who would actually make a difference,and it can be used to open up new stories and adventures.depending on who it is,he could be connected to the future,alien races,demons,apokilips,the story potential has to be there if we are gonna even consider him having a third donor.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah I always felt the whole point of the Westfield reveal was that the donor doesn't matter period.
    Superman: "Don't be so hard on yourself. Westfield was no saint, but I believe circumstances twisted his better qualities while they've reinforced yours for…how long now?"

    SB: "I dunno…guess I busted out of Cadmus about this time last year"

    Superman: "And you've done a lot of good in that time. Learning that you're cloned from Westfield shouldn't change that. It doesn't automatically make you the man he was."

    And this is one of many reasons why Kesel > Johns. The former did create the character.

    The point of genes not mattering was right there. And a parallel was done on purpose with Superman telling Superboy how he didn't know where he came from and learning that he was alien instead of human was the worst thing he could have imagined....just like Kon's revelation.

    He was essentially made 100% from an dark man but the end result and focus was a….clone based on Superman. Like the character said, everything about him was changed when they turned him into a Kryptonian equivalent. Not Luthor genes or anything of the sort (and Lex character sketches as justification for a SB evil side has to do with Lex the person. Not Superboy) Superboy already had the potential for any single direction and it has zip to do with who he was cloned from. He wasn't raised by the Kents, didn't have what Clark grew up with, and didn’t have what shaped Clark to be Superman. From the beginning, he didn't live his life by who he was cloned from or by trying to emulate Superman. Johns said "Superman never made a mistake. Why do I make so many?" was his thought process.....that was 100% wrong like the "hometown jock" thing. He lived his life by his own convictions, character, and his way of being a hero from his own experiences. His own interpretation of what it meant to be the next Superman and not constantly comparing his life to Superman’s (which Johns and others did ad-nauseum). But he saw Superman as the ideal to strive for just as Steel and Supergirl did.

    The character in a nutshell was (Adventures of Superman #501):

    Lois: "So I started thinking…What was Clark like at fifteen? What if he had all of his powers back then? Maybe he would act just like this kid!"

    Martha Kent: "Now you know no boy we raised would ever act that way, Lois. Powers or not!" – Martha Kent

    Lois: "I guess that’s just it Martha….you didn’t raise this boy!"

    Funny how it’s 'oh it’s not easy to grasp" when it was a teen character with the iconic “S”, look, and his own powers.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-23-2012 at 07:46 AM.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    Superman: "Don't be so hard on yourself. Westfield was no saint, but I believe circumstances twisted his better qualities while they've reinforced yours for…how long now?"

    SB: "I dunno…guess I busted out of Cadmus about this time last year"

    Superman: "And you've done a lot of good in that time. Learning that you're cloned from Westfield shouldn't change that. It doesn't automatically make you the man he was."

    And this is one of many reasons why Kesel > Johns. The former did create the character.

    The point of genes not mattering was right there. And a parallel was done on purpose with Superman telling Superboy how he didn't know where he came from and learning that he was alien instead of human was the worst thing he could have imagined....just like Kon's revelation.

    He was essentially made 100% from an dark man but the end result and focus was a….clone based on Superman. Like the character said, everything about him was changed when they turned him into a Kryptonian equivalent. Not Luthor genes or anything of the sort (and Lex character sketches as justification for a SB evil side has to do with Lex the person. Not Superboy) Superboy already had the potential for any single direction and it has zip to do with who he was cloned from. He wasn't raised by the Kents, didn't have what Clark grew up with, and didn’t have what shaped Clark to be Superman. From the beginning, he didn't live his life by who he was cloned from or by trying to emulate Superman. Johns said "Superman never made a mistake. Why do I make so many?" was his thought process.....that was 100% wrong like the "hometown jock" thing. He lived his life by his own convictions, character, and his way of being a hero from his own experiences. His own interpretation of what it meant to be the next Superman and not constantly comparing his life to Superman’s (which Johns and others did ad-nauseum). But he saw Superman as the ideal to strive for just as Steel and Supergirl did.

    The character in a nutshell was (Adventures of Superman #501):

    Lois: "So I started thinking…What was Clark like at fifteen? What if he had all of his powers back then? Maybe he would act just like this kid!"

    Martha Kent: "Now you know no boy we raised would ever act that way, Lois. Powers or not!" – Martha Kent

    Lois: "I guess that’s just it Martha….you didn’t raise this boy!"

    Funny how it’s 'oh it’s not easy to grasp" when it was a teen character with the iconic “S”, look, and his own powers.

    I agree with this and that's why the 90's Superboy was so good for the most part. Johns just made a mistake on his focus and derailed things for the character, but I think his concept was good for what it was and was a valid take on Superboy.

    As for the people who don't like the Lex thing and feel as if Lex would never mix his DNA with Superman's out of xenophobic tendencies then I'd like to cite All-Star Superman. In the book Lex drinks a formula that turns him into the equivalent of Superman and to make matters even worse he didn't come up with the formula himself he stole it from Superman and recreated it. Lex's jealousy will always get the better of him and he's extremely jealous of Superman he would like nothing more than to be just like him alien or not. In the same book Lex works out his body and becomes an impressive specimen and he's on remark is "go on feel" as he shows Clark his bicep "it's easy to be strong when you just happen to have come from the planet krypton--this takes hard work"

    Now at the end of the end of this story the fact that Lex not only steals the formula and uses it to gain that strength that he looked down on a few issues ago illustrates no real hard work on his part and is in fact taking the easy way out and contradicting everything he said before. Lex would have loved to have been born on krypton a world of like-minded super people, but he was born an earth man so he must fake superiority to hide his jealousy.

    Now this Lex was not canon during Johns run or anything but many (myself included) see him as the end all be all to a Lex Luthor take and while he is xenophobic and all on the top he is actually very jealous and would like nothing more than to be Superman.

    So him making a Superman in his own image and not out of the question if you look at it this way.......that's all I'm saying.

  10. #100

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    Superboy, Teen Titans, Ravagers, Legion Lost are all pretty bad.
    The writers are focusing on this lame and convoluted Ravagers/Harvest crossover at the expense of character development and good, solid storytelling.

  11. #101
    Junior Member Ice Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    So him making a Superman in his own image and not out of the question if you look at it this way.......that's all I'm saying.
    Except Superboy isn't in Lex's own image at all, he looks exactly like a teenage Superman, he didn't even give him red hair.

  12. #102
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Wolf View Post
    Except Superboy isn't in Lex's own image at all, he looks exactly like a teenage Superman, he didn't even give him red hair.
    Well "image" as in he would be Lex in intent and all, but it stings much more when you make him look like Superman but make him do unSuperman things and change his look a bit like say shaving his head bald like in TT. If Lex would have just made a Lex clone with Superman powers then it wouldn't really have the same effect as a Superman who is with Lex like Superboy was gonna be for him.

    But again when he did gain control over him he made Superboy shave his head and rip an "L" into the "S" on shirt as a symbol of Lex making Superman his.

  13. #103
    Senior Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Basically, what (if anything) do you see as the failure here?
    When I read the title of this thread, my first thought was "There's a Superboy title?" Which is probably near to where the failure is. I don't think many people are even aware of it.

    I'm also old enough to not really care one way or the other in any case, admittedly, since we know from Action Comics that Superboy is not Clark (yes, I know he hasn't been for a long, long time). But as little as I care about Clark Superboy, I have zero interest at all in trying to pick up and gain interest in non-Clark Superboy.
    In my opinion is implied in every post. Please make an effort to remember that.

  14. #104
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    Lex wanted a superman he could control like a puppet,something he couldnt do with the real superman,thats my take anyway.

    johns should never have made kons problem with lex being his donor because he felt he could be bad,instead he should have made it be about how kon thought lex was his "family" and now his repsonsibily.
    i liked that he added the lex stuff,but i didnt like that he had to completley rewrite history to do it.

    Johns could.have easily just followed up on issue 100 of superboy,with SB gaining all his kryptonian like.powers,but keeping him a modified human,still naming him conner kent,still wearing the t shirt and jeans,still being a powerhouse,that way he could have totally respected the past kesel history,b ut still adding his own touches.even if lex was shoehorned into his history,i do like the possibliity of a adversarial relationship between the two.

    my first choice for a third donor has always been brainiac,or brainiac girl(with ms martian and maxima next),i mean who is supermans two biggest villians,lex and brainiac,and if your trying to link.kon to superman mythology which characters would.be better than those two.

  15. #105
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Lex wanted a superman he could control like a puppet,something he couldnt do with the real superman,thats my take anyway.
    I get what people are saying the reason that wouldn't be the case. After all, even if Luthor controlled Superman himself, people would still see him as the savior over Luthor. And Luthor wants to be the one everyone needs and depends on. Not his puppet.

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