Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 115
  1. #46
    Senior Member godisawesome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,204

    Default

    I grew to like the half Luthor/half Kent thing, but only if you play up some of the reversals that are possible with the characters. Lex is an evil genius, but Kon should be smarter than he looks and demonstrate some of that potential Lex has for good. and the whole purpose of Match, Black Zero, and "Lionel" is to show how careful and human Superman is when he doesn't just fry people. To this day, I want to see a Black Zero storyline embracing the idea that he's Luthor's successor with Superman's powers as a way of showing the type of potential Kon has. And it's why i'm disappointed Harvest and N.O.W.H.E.R.E. are Superboy's creators: there's no real investment in them as antagonists because they seem so run of the mill and they lack the personal angle Lex brings into the old continuity and Young Justice. I still don't give a damn about these characters, and as a result, I don't care for the new Superboy all that much.

    And I do think focus and vision are the main things needed in the book right now. Defalco doesn't right that much differently than Kessel, but their character ideas and Kessel's long term vision. Superboy needs passion and some 'tude. Right now, he seems mostly disinterested.
    “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

    -C.S. Lewis

  2. #47
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    I agree, C-Dot. You don't have to really learn about the other guy because it's about Superboy first and foremost. How much do we know or need to know about Zeus, the Parkers, Martha Wayne, etc.

    For some reason "Lex/Clark hybrid" speaks to people. I personally find it creepy as hell that he's the son of two men without their consent but whatevs.



    Except it's not the worst of humanity. That's more what Batman has to deal with, Lex is just not Superman's friend. He's a very inconsistent threat. And again, he's not really needed unless you wanna hammer home the point.

    But it's the worst that a normal person can conceive happening to them and there in stand the beauty of Lex. He's a bad guy that the average person can see themselves becoming if put in the position and then can see glimpses of him in their every day lives. Lex is petty, small, jealous,and self centered non of that is a stretch for any human. The guys that Batman faces are simply crazy. With our cultures views we see them as humans BUT with something wrong with them that they can attribute their behavior to, where as Lex is a very talented smart and handsome man who is really just jealous. That slope is far more slippery then becoming a crazy man in clown make up.

    Then the bigger stories come from when Lex can't see past his jealousy to see what damage he is doing. He may even validate. I don't think he's needed in Superboy's origin but he complements that Superboy now has the potential for good and bad something that most people would find hard to swallow if he were just a Superman clone. Lex is really just a personification. But realistically speaking Superboy would already have the complicity for good or bad because his environment would be changed and give him a new set of influences.

  3. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yes but then you get into the whole "well he's not really a clone of Superman but a clone of this one guy and he was made to look like Superman" then we have to learn about the one guy because he's not really known at all outside of comics.
    Clone.
    Based on.
    Superman.

    Clone made to be Superman.

    That was the premise. That was the theme. That's who he was. Not "the one guy in a cape" (and that "one guy" ran the group that created him).

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    How they went about the Johns Superboy was done badly because it took a lot of focus off him and put it on his "parents" but if done better it could be about Superboy working past that and becoming his own boy. Then it becomes about him.
    It was done badly because they didn't even bother reading what the character was, what he was about, his personality/powers/lore, or what he was created to be. There was already a "Superboy made to be a weapon". His name is Match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    There is nothing that says the original Superboy couldn't fall into the same trap as the Johns one. The fact that he was made to be the world greatest hero but was mad from a bad person could have really gotten to him for the same amount of time as the Johns Superboy. In fact he could have thought that he was just a fraud just pretending to be Superman because he had no DNA links to him. He could have seen his face a just a mask of sorts hiding the face of a bad person.
    In the words of Nightwing, "coulda, woulda.....didn't.".

    He didn't fall into that trap because he was never written be that way and that wasn't his personality. All the writers before Johns got that right. The original Kon-El DID have the same story of learning he was a clone of a bad person. And how did he do? Superman talked with him and Superboy completely defied it all. No emo-ness. No whining. Didn't question himself or said he didn't deserve to exist like Johns Superboy. No checklists on whether he was evil. No drama that stretched to thirty issues. Nothing. Became his own boy and LIVED. THAT was how you deal with it. Well, that and the fact that cloning does not produce evil out the box clones. He dealt with what he could become with full adult bad Kon-El and still shined

    And for like the umpteenth time, the kid's entire body was made with Superman as the template. Every single cell was made Kryptonian-like and based on the genetics of Superman without having to literally BE Superman. He has the link and always had. I swear some just stuck on Westfield and not even bother looking at what the kid actually was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    It's all about writing in the end. Your Superboy just got lucky in how he was written.
    No. People liked the concept with the writing. If it didn't work, it would have flopped like every single character in comics that didn't work. Someone bought those books, toys, and games.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-16-2012 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #49

    Default

    But he's not a clone of Superman. He's a clown of a random dude that no one has any connection to named Paul Westfield, who was given super powers that kind of sort of replicated some of the super powers of Superman. Whats his connection to Superman other than that they happened to brand him Superboy?

    "So he's a clone of Superman?"

    "Well, no, he's a clone of Paul Westfield."

    "Who?"

    "Paul Westfield, the guy who ran Cadmus labs."

    "Uh, so why does he have super powers?"

    "Well, they manipulated his DNA so he got some Super Powers."

    "So what does he have to do with Superman?"

    "Well, they were trying to replicate the super powers of Superman."

    "So he's the clone of some random dude who was then given Super Powers?"

    "Yeah."

    How can there be ANY DOUBT that this is less intuitive, less encapsulated, than "hybrid clone of Superman and Lex Luthor", two names that literally everyone knows?

    And what exactly makes being the clone of 'two men' any more creepy than being the clone of one man made to look like another? Would a clone of Superman alone be less creepy?

    I don't have any problem with people preferring the original origin, but c'mon, to deny that Superman + LEx Luthor is a more iconic, more obvious origin is pure bull headedness. It's a bit like saying the Matrix Supergirl's origin was less convoluted than the Pre-Crisis/current Kara Zor El Supergirl. Put personal taste aside for a moment and you can see that just isn't the case.
    Check out my New Blog! Just a random assortment of ideas, thoughts, and reviews!

    http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/

  5. #50
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    Clone.
    Based on.
    Superman.

    Clone made to be Superman.

    That was the premise. That was the theme. That's who he was. Not "the one guy in a cape" (and that "one guy" ran the group that created him).



    It was done badly because they didn't even bother reading what the character was, what he was about, his personality/powers/lore, or what he was created to be. There was already a "Superboy made to be a weapon". His name is Match.



    In the words of Nightwing, "coulda, woulda.....didn't.".

    He didn't fall into that trap because he was never written be that way and that wasn't his personality. All the writers before Johns got that right. The original Kon-El DID have the same story of learning he was a clone of a bad person. And how did he do? Superman talked with him and Superboy completely defied it all. No emo-ness. No whining. Didn't question himself or said he didn't deserve to exist like Johns Superboy. No checklists on whether he was evil. No drama that stretched to thirty issues. Nothing. Became his own boy and LIVED. THAT was how you deal with it. Well, that and the fact that cloning does not produce evil out the box clones. He dealt with what he could become with full adult bad Kon-El and still shined

    And for like the umpteenth time, the kid's entire body was made with Superman as the template. Every single cell was made Kryptonian-like and based on the genetics of Superman without having to literally BE Superman. He has the link and always had. I swear some just stuck on Westfield and not even bother looking at what the kid actually was.



    No. People liked the concept with the writing. If it didn't work, it would have flopped like every single character in comics that didn't work. Someone bought those books, toys, and games.
    ......You just proved my point. It was written better in that regard. There is nothing that says the Johns Superboy couldn't have gotten over it just as fast he was just written bad in that regard.

    Also every cell was made Kryptonian-like but wan't kryptoninan and it wasn't Superman's that's all of trying to get across. And Johns Superboy was a reboot so they could have made him anyway they wanted and cherry picked whatever they wanted from the 90's Superboy which they did.

  6. #51
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    JEEEEAAAN
    Posts
    5,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    But he's not a clone of Superman. He's a clown of a random dude that no one has any connection to named Paul Westfield, who was given super powers that kind of sort of replicated some of the super powers of Superman. Whats his connection to Superman other than that they happened to brand him Superboy?
    He was a bio engineered Superboy. It's really not the most difficult idea comics have asked us to accept. I'm a Nathan Grey/Summers fan, btw.

    And what exactly makes being the clone of 'two men' any more creepy than being the clone of one man made to look like another? Would a clone of Superman alone be less creepy?
    Yes. Or Westfield himself, or Westfield and Superman. Someone that doesn't hate Superman willing to use their own DNA is less creepy, yes.

    I don't have any problem with people preferring the original origin, but c'mon, to deny that Superman + LEx Luthor is a more iconic, more obvious origin is pure bull headedness. It's a bit like saying the Matrix Supergirl's origin was less convoluted than the Pre-Crisis/current Kara Zor El Supergirl. Put personal taste aside for a moment and you can see that just isn't the case.
    Iconic and obvious aren't always better.

    Lex is petty, small, jealous,and self centered non of that is a stretch for any human. The guys that Batman faces are simply crazy. With our cultures views we see them as humans BUT with something wrong with them that they can attribute their behavior to, where as Lex is a very talented smart and handsome man who is really just jealous. That slope is far more slippery then becoming a crazy man in clown make up.
    Not everyone Batman faces is crazy, and many were bad before they'd become insane.

    But aside from that, the small, mean spirited, and dark side of Lex is brought out by Superman. I think the Superboy people have enjoyed the most lacked the disposition or clear object of contempt to really channel Lex. For however much traits based on DNA are even worth.

  7. #52
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post

    Yes. Or Westfield himself, or Westfield and Superman. Someone that doesn't hate Superman willing to use their own DNA is less creepy, yes.
    Yeah this is why the Lex clone thing makes no sense to me at all.

    If they make him a Lex clone, I would just hope they don't focus on the "I could be evil" crap angst, or else I'm dropping the book instantly. If they don't go that route, then at least it will be easy to ignore the reveal.

  8. #53
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    But he's not a clone of Superman. He's a clown of a random dude that no one has any connection to named Paul Westfield, who was given super powers that kind of sort of replicated some of the super powers of Superman. Whats his connection to Superman other than that they happened to brand him Superboy?

    "So he's a clone of Superman?"

    "Well, no, he's a clone of Paul Westfield."

    "Who?"

    "Paul Westfield, the guy who ran Cadmus labs."

    "Uh, so why does he have super powers?"

    "Well, they manipulated his DNA so he got some Super Powers."

    "So what does he have to do with Superman?"

    "Well, they were trying to replicate the super powers of Superman."

    "So he's the clone of some random dude who was then given Super Powers?"

    "Yeah."

    How can there be ANY DOUBT that this is less intuitive, less encapsulated, than "hybrid clone of Superman and Lex Luthor", two names that literally everyone knows?

    And what exactly makes being the clone of 'two men' any more creepy than being the clone of one man made to look like another? Would a clone of Superman alone be less creepy?

    I don't have any problem with people preferring the original origin, but c'mon, to deny that Superman + LEx Luthor is a more iconic, more obvious origin is pure bull headedness. It's a bit like saying the Matrix Supergirl's origin was less convoluted than the Pre-Crisis/current Kara Zor El Supergirl. Put personal taste aside for a moment and you can see that just isn't the case.
    For someone who claimed to read the original origin, you got a lot of it wrong.

    Number one, whole point of Reign of the Supermen was the solved mystery that NONE of the Superman was Superman back from the dead as a clone, walk in spirit, cyborg, or with aggressive new mandate. Superboy wasn't meant to be Superman's actual clone and they showed it in his first full story! Every single Superboy story had the clues there. If you think he was a clone of Superman, you were fooled. Red herring. That was the point.

    Two, Paul Westfield was not "some random dude". If you actually READ "Reign of the Supermen" before or read Superman before that, his role is there loud and clear. Ran Cadmus. Grudge against Superman for previous issues of Superman going rogue in Adventures Of Superman #450 and Superman #27. Wanted a Superman for the government as stated in Funeral for a Friend and foreshadowed in Superman #58. If you honestly believe they just picked him in some random way, you've got to be joking or didn't read much of it. He provided his cells and they changed everything to mold it into a home grown Superman.

    Three, Superboy's powers didn't "kind of sort of" replicated Superman's powers. It came from studying Superman's aura and translating those powers as a telekinetic field for a a human. THAT led to Superboy having powers that Superman DIDN'T have and the field did that with tactile telekinesis. He was genetically made to be a Kryptonian equivalent and was designed right down to cell level to be like Superman. They did not "manipulate his DNA". They changed his entire cells, added powers, and grew him less than a week after 13 tries. And if you read it during the second Kesel run or through SOY, he showed to have all of Superman's abilities and more powerful when fully aged.

    Four, it's not "Cadmus Labs". Project Cadmus was more than a lab. A fully funded and armed clandestine government agency. "Cadmus Labs" was Johns making them a flipping Luthor side project.

    Five, considering they studied his body and modeled him down to cell level after Superman, his link is more than established.

    Six, simply put, "Superboy was a clone based on Superman. He was made from human cells radically changed to be Superman in look and powers."

    Or....

    "Created to replace Superman, Superboy is the closest human equivalent to a Kryptonian that Cadmus scientists could create. His tactile telekinesis approximates superstrength, flight, invulnerability, as well as granting him a number of unique abilities such as disassembing objects with a single touch. The Kryptonian duplication was carried out in such scrupulous detail that the kid is also susceptible to Kryptonite radiation. It is theorized that he is a solar battery like Superman and may have other abilities that he was intended to grow into"

    “Cadmus decided to clone their own Man of Steel. Starting by getting a sample of super-genes, right? No way is more like it! Turns out, in Kryptonian, DNA means ‘do not analyze’. But Director Westfield had a second team and Plan B waiting in the wings. They genetically engineered the closest human equivalent to Superman that they could. Mainly, me! And who, may I ask, was I cloned from? The only person that Mr. Forget My Ethics would trust with that much power, of course. Westfield himself! Only good news is that they genetically changed just about everything when they made me.” – Team Superman: Secret Files and Origins #1

    “We obtained Superman’s body. But the usual cloning techniques were useless on his alien physiology. We could genetically alter a clone to look like Superman. But we needed to simulate Superman’s powers” – Adventures of Superman #506

    “Cadmus certainly knew what they were doing! You’re totally human of course. But they made you as Kryptonian-like as possible.” -Superboy #0

    “I’m the closest thing to Superman that advanced genetics could cook up”
    “You’re up against the closest genetic equivalent of Superman science could create” – Superboy/Robin WF3 #1 and #2

    “Well I think the most common misconception is that Superboy’s a clone of Superman himself. But that’s not true. He is a clone, created by Project Cadmus, which was trying to produce a replacement for Superman when the world thought that he was dead. But the cellstock used to create Superboy didn’t come from Superman. It came from some other source. One that executive director Paul Westfield thought would make Superboy easier to control.” – Superboy #32

    If you honestly believe that no one got that Superboy was a human Superman or it's convoluted, you missed the 1993-2003 period, chief.

    And yes, it is creepy that Luthor would add his cells when he despises Superman, wanted nothing to do with an alien taking his spot when he wanted full control, wanted Superman to stay dead, paranoid about Superman returning as a clone, and stopped Cadmus from cloning him
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-16-2012 at 03:07 PM.

  9. #54
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    ......You just proved my point. It was written better in that regard. There is nothing that says the Johns Superboy couldn't have gotten over it just as fast he was just written bad in that regard.

    Also every cell was made Kryptonian-like but wan't kryptoninan and it wasn't Superman's that's all of trying to get across. And Johns Superboy was a reboot so they could have made him anyway they wanted and cherry picked whatever they wanted from the 90's Superboy which they did.
    Actually I didn't prove your point. It was more than "written better". The writers actually knew who the character was and the personality of the character. The other was a completely different character who Johns himself stated in his "Superboy: The Family Tree" that Luthor being there was to add more stories with drama involving THAT plotpoint.

    Johns Superboy was a reboot in every sense of the word but presented as "a continuation of the Kesel Superboy". He went with what he thought Superboy was and got everything wrong from powers, personality, origins, other characters such as Westfield and Match, and even species. In Teen Titans #1, he even got the Cadmus files wrong when no one knew Westfield was the donor and "Project: Superboy" wasn't the name of the project to create a SuperMAN replacement. And he kept retconning in Titans issues to change the story right down to Titans Annual which tried to reconcile it but missed it. He pitched this before with his "Superboy The Family Tree" and got that wrong as well. So no, he didn't "cherrypick".
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-16-2012 at 02:55 PM.

  10. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah this is why the Lex clone thing makes no sense to me at all.

    If they make him a Lex clone, I would just hope they don't focus on the "I could be evil" crap angst, or else I'm dropping the book instantly. If they don't go that route, then at least it will be easy to ignore the reveal.
    The angst. Oh the angst.....

    "I don't know what I'll do. I don't know what I am. Conner Kent. Kon-El. Superboy. I don't deserve to be called any of them. God. Why am I here? Why do I even have to exist"

    "Do I have a soul?"

    "The human DNA. Think about it. What it really is. What's inside of me. Part of me. It's corrupted. I can feel it, Tim."

    That is not the same guy who said "As long as you love and feel and hate and cry and all that good stuff, you can't be anything else but real. 'Cause that's what makes you alive. That's what gives you a soul." or "If you're as slimy as the Westfield from my world, I'm nothing like you." .

  11. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    I agree, C-Dot. You don't have to really learn about the other guy because it's about Superboy first and foremost. How much do we know or need to know about Zeus, the Parkers, Martha Wayne, etc.
    Exactly. The reason why the character worked so well is that it was based on his own merits and his own niche. It wasn't "Westfield II the series!" and anyone who think that didn't read the bloody book before Titans. It was about the end result of what was created, the role he played, and his own adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    For some reason "Lex/Clark hybrid" speaks to people. I personally find it creepy as hell that he's the son of two men without their consent but whatevs.
    Clones are the equivalent of twin brother or sister. But I agree and for me, it's more than that. When you read what was going on in Superman, you knew Lex's MO. He hated Superman. Fantasized about his destruction. Believed himself to be the pinnacle of humanity and unstoppable. Felt Superman was a threat to his empire. When Superman died, Lex was paranoid and wanted all confirmation of his death. When he knew he wasn't coming back and stopped Cadmus, he celebrated and almost riverdanced on Superman's grave. Now I'm supposed to believe that this man willingly resurrected his hated and mortal enemy with his own cells? He who stopped all cloning attempted and wanted him dead as his ultimate goal? That was just nonsense. Granted Luthor is about control, but is about sole control. No one but Lex and not someone with the power to rise against him. It just didn't make a lick of sense considering everything (and it's a lot of everything). Like Lex's big plan to make a clone to get close to Superman....who was dead when Superboy was made. Or the nonsense of someone thinking he's evil based on 50% of his genes? Genes don't work like that and the bald head/L torn in shirt just made me go "what"? It's a lot of reasons why it's just out of place.

    Plus Lex could just make a clone with his own Lexcorp lab (and he did just that with Supergirl before Superboy was even around).

    It seemed that Lex/Superman speaks to....fans of Lex and Superman. Not Kon or what the character has been for many years. When the new 52 series had "genetic memories" (since when do clones have that?!), I shook my head. First inherited evil when clones don't work like that, now not even his own memories.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Except it's not the worst of humanity. That's more what Batman has to deal with, Lex is just not Superman's friend. He's a very inconsistent threat. And again, he's not really needed unless you wanna hammer home the point.
    Lex has already been in origins of many Superman characters from Bizarro to Metallo to Parasite....he was never a part of Superboy and just shoehorned.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-19-2012 at 07:32 AM.

  12. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    For someone who claimed to read the original origin, you got a lot of it wrong.
    I'd ask you to point out what I got wrong, then, since neither of your points in any way indicate that I got anything wrong. You seem to take issue with my phrasing, but not a single fact was anything but true.

    Number one, whole point of Reign of the Supermen was the solved mystery that NONE of the Superman was Superman back from the dead as a clone, walk in spirit, cyborg, or with aggressive new mandate.
    Uh, cool? That has absolutely nothing to do with any of my points above.


    Superboy wasn't meant to be Superman's actual clone and they showed it in his first full story!
    I...don't care. I've never once said that Superboy was 'meant' to be Superman's clone at the outset. You're boxing with phantoms, here.


    Every single Superboy story had the clues there. If you think he was a clone of Superman, you were fooled. Red herring. That was the point.
    And I feel the need to reiterate, because you seem to have a sincere comprehension problem; no one ever argued this. Not a person on this thread, and certainly not me.

    It's only that the Superman/Lex Luthor clone is more iconic, and more identifiable, that I'm arguing. Which is undeniable.

    Two, Paul Westfield was not "some random dude". If you actually READ "Reign of the Supermen" before or read Superman before that, his role is there loud and clear. Ran Cadmus.
    It's almost like I said that in my post, isn't it? Oh, I guess that's because I did.

    Paul Westfield, to most, is 'some random dude'. Go up to someone on the street. Ask them who Superman is. Ask them who Lex Luthor is. Then ask them to Paul Westfield is. Hell, go up to a random sampling of 30 people at a comic con and ask them the same questions. See what they say about which they recognize.


    Grudge against Superman for previous issues of Superman going rogue in Adventures Of Superman #450 and Superman #27. Wanted a Superman for the government as stated in Funeral for a Friend and foreshadowed in Superman #58. If you honestly believe they just picked him in some random way, you've got to be joking or didn't read much of it. He provided his cells and they changed everything to mold it into a home grown Superman.
    Yeah dude, referencing obscure issues of Adventures of Superman is going to have the readers clamoring at the door for more.

    Three, Superboy's powers didn't "kind of sort of" replicated Superman's powers.
    Lets just take a moment and point out how funny it is that you support that Superboy's powers 'kind of sort of replicate Superman's powers' with the remainder of this paragraph. You're comedic gold over here, brother.


    It came from studying Superman's aura and translating those powers as a telekinetic field for a a human.
    Lets just take a moment to point out how irrelevant to the point this is; no one argued with how those powers came to be. I own all those same issues. Padding out your argument with irrelevant details doesn't make it look any stronger.


    THAT led to Superboy having powers that Superman DIDN'T have and the field did that with tactile telekinesis.
    Which was created explicitly in an effort to give a rough approximation of Superman's powers. Kinda sorta.


    He was genetically made to be a Kryptonian equivalent and was designed right down to cell level to be like Superman. They did not "manipulate his DNA". They changed his entire cells, added powers, and grew him less than a week after 13 tries.
    Hey, just out of curiousity, where do you think DNA resides? In cells, perhaps? Sheesh, this is some really basic science.


    And if you read it during the second Kesel run or through SOY, he showed to have all of Superman's abilities and more powerful when fully aged.
    Another useless piece of information in an effort to obscure the fact that your initial 'complaint' holds no water.

    Four, it's not "Cadmus Labs". Project Cadmus was more than a lab. A fully funded and armed clandestine government agency. "Cadmus Labs" was Johns making them a flipping Luthor side project.
    Wow, incredible. Really relevant.

    Five, considering they studied his body and modeled him down to cell level after Superman, his link is more than established.
    It's ASTONISHINGLY weak, is my point. Not nearly as strong as "A combination of the DNA of Superman and Lex Luthor".

    Six, simply put, "Superboy was a clone based on Superman. He was made from human cells radically changed to be Superman in look and powers."
    Which isn't at all as powerful or interesting to MOST as Superman + Lex Luthor. How can you not see how much more obvious and iconic that is? How much more paltable to a general readership that is going to be?

    Or....

    "Created to replace Superman, Superboy is the closest human equivalent to a Kryptonian that Cadmus scientists could create. His tactile telekinesis approximates superstrength, flight, invulnerability, as well as granting him a number of unique abilities such as disassembing objects with a single touch. The Kryptonian duplication was carried out in such scrupulous detail that the kid is also susceptible to Kryptonite radiation. It is theorized that he is a solar battery like Superman and may have other abilities that he was intended to grow into"

    “Cadmus decided to clone their own Man of Steel. Starting by getting a sample of super-genes, right? No way is more like it! Turns out, in Kryptonian, DNA means ‘do not analyze’. But Director Westfield had a second team and Plan B waiting in the wings. They genetically engineered the closest human equivalent to Superman that they could. Mainly, me! And who, may I ask, was I cloned from? The only person that Mr. Forget My Ethics would trust with that much power, of course. Westfield himself! Only good news is that they genetically changed just about everything when they made me.” – Team Superman: Secret Files and Origins #1

    “We obtained Superman’s body. But the usual cloning techniques were useless on his alien physiology. We could genetically alter a clone to look like Superman. But we needed to simulate Superman’s powers” – Adventures of Superman #506

    “Cadmus certainly knew what they were doing! You’re totally human of course. But they made you as Kryptonian-like as possible.” -Superboy #0

    “I’m the closest thing to Superman that advanced genetics could cook up”
    “You’re up against the closest genetic equivalent of Superman science could create” – Superboy/Robin WF3 #1 and #2

    “Well I think the most common misconception is that Superboy’s a clone of Superman himself. But that’s not true. He is a clone, created by Project Cadmus, which was trying to produce a replacement for Superman when the world thought that he was dead. But the cellstock used to create Superboy didn’t come from Superman. It came from some other source. One that executive director Paul Westfield thought would make Superboy easier to control.” – Superboy #32

    You're really proving my point for me here. That they had to constantly reinforce this, and correct it, just proves how counter intuitive it is.

    I don't have a problem with this origin, for what its worth. It's the origin I first became familiar with, and I thought it was interesting and kind of weird. But there can be no doubt that it is not as recognizable, not as immediately in your face or even as immediately interesting as Superman/Lex Luthor hybrid. It just isn't.

    If you honestly believe that no one got that Superboy was a human Superman or it's convoluted, you missed the 1993-2003 period, chief.
    That they constantly had to reiterate it PROVES that they were fighting the obvious assumption that people were making.

    And yes, it is creepy that Luthor would add his cells when he despises Superman, wanted nothing to do with an alien taking his spot when he wanted full control, wanted Superman to stay dead, paranoid about Superman returning as a clone, and stopped Cadmus from cloning him
    Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever that Luthor would take Superman's DNA and corrupt it by putting a piece of himself in it. It's not like Lex Luthor wants to take everything that is Superman's and make it his, including his symbol and his DNA.

    Totally.
    Check out my New Blog! Just a random assortment of ideas, thoughts, and reviews!

    http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/

  13. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    He was a bio engineered Superboy. It's really not the most difficult idea comics have asked us to accept. I'm a Nathan Grey/Summers fan, btw.
    It's not about whether a group of hardcore fans can accept it or not. It's about which is the more recognizable, succinct, drama-laden origin.

    The Superman/Lex Luthor origin is clearly that. Does it make it better to any one person individually? Of course not, no more than the "Superman's cousin" origin is better than the Matrix origin to a fan of the matrix Supergirl run. But certainly it's one more people can understand and digest.


    Yes. Or Westfield himself, or Westfield and Superman. Someone that doesn't hate Superman willing to use their own DNA is less creepy, yes.
    Westfield hated Superman and used his DNA.

    The whole point was that Lex Luthor put a piece of himself in a Superboy, a creature designed to be a Superman. He made it HIS.

    I'm not sure you're using the term 'creepy' right here. What about this gives you the creeps?

    Iconic and obvious aren't always better.
    In popular media they are. In marketing they are. In terms of getting sales, they are.

    That's all that I'm arguing.
    Check out my New Blog! Just a random assortment of ideas, thoughts, and reviews!

    http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/

  14. #59
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,547

    Default

    .....So I agree with everyone that he should have a better direction. He seems very aimless, like their just doing a big Superhero checklist with the character. Mostly I really think they missed out on the whole "new to the world and how that affects his personality and view" angle. Giving him an apartment, a night life, and the fashion sense to have a man bag was just too much too fast for me.

    I wish they would take some pointers from YJ as far as his personality and views of the world go.

    YJ all day!

  15. #60
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    here
    Posts
    19,021

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    . . . It's all about writing in the end. Your Superboy just got lucky in how he was written.
    So, it wasn't that Superboy was bad . . . he was just written that way?

    Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •