DCAU Superman Problems

[DochaDocha]

LOL. For years, I used to joke that the writers got strange enjoyment for every time Superman screamed and grunted in pain. Then I read this quote today from voicesfromkrypton:

ANDREA ROMANO:
Superman is one of the characters we joke about, because it seems that if we don’t electrocute Superman in every episode, we’re just not happy. So not only did he have to be able to act through the role and have a voice, he had to be able to do intense screams of pain as if he were being electrocuted.

GEORGE NEWBERN:
The grunts and moans are really hard for me and it hurts. They gave me more of that stuff than I ever thought I would have to do. I’m a trained singer, I was in musical theater for a long time, so I know how to support my voice, to keep from completely ruining it. But when you scream in these short bursts, you have to actually abuse your vocal chords to get the sound. The problem is that they have me have these extended screams and I have to kind of look up and say, “I can only do two more. You’ve got to wait until the end,” then I go home and I can’t talk for a day. None of the other characters have to do it. I have to say that’s really the hardest part about that job. There is always some laser beam or electric device that requires an extended cry from me.

If Superman is the only guy grunting in pain, you probably screwed up somewhere.

[dupersuper]

Actually, that scene had a point to it. Darkseid considered humans beneath him and Batman, a human, manages to show that they are more than just mere insects.

Which is fine if he did it in a way that made sense, rather than suddenly being able to knock Darkseid aside with a kick. It was the precurser to the Wonder Woman stomach kick.

I didn't like the JL of no A series

I'm always happy when they leave out the A, but then I'm from C.

Except in "Knight Time", it was Superman who figured out what happened to Bruce and was able to take down four of his rogues. And then rescue him from Brainiac. Then Clark had to rescue Bruce in "The Demon Reborn".

That was cool (though I'm not sure why you say "able to take down 4 of his rogues" like that should be a big accomplishment for Superman...).

The biggest flaw in "Knight Time," as I think I mentioned earlier, was that Robin met Superman and didn't give a F. A Robin who is that emotionless and joyless upon meeting Superman for the first time is hardly a Robin at all, IMHO.

Remember the Legends of the DCU in which Supes and Dick meet? and their hanging out with Bats in golden age Worlds Finest and alone in Nightwing Year 1 and the reason Dick took the name Nightwing in the first place? Or Superman carving his autograph into a piece of metal for Jason Todd? Or how intimidated Tim was fighting vampires with him or filling in for him with the rest of the super heroes in the second Metropolis Mailbag? I forget, has Damian met Supes yet? In the Gates Worlds Finest mini maybe? Either way I don't think they've met in the Nu52..

Remember that this is based of the JL/JLU continuity, where Wally was the only speedster and he didn't even know about the Speed Force. Much less the limits of what he could do. Johnny, like Wally, wasn't exceptionally bright.

If your argument is that it's based on the JLU Wally: while he may not be exceptionally mature, we do clearly see he's a police scientist like Barry was.

"Tower Of Babel" was part one of a two part story arc, with "Queen Of Fables" being the second part.

Queen of Fables wasn't the second part of Tower of Babel: it's just the story that happens after it that has only a cameo from Batman because he's not on the team at that time. The Tower of Babel was followed up on the issue after that, with Supes and Bats making peace and sharing their secret identities with Wally (who you think would know at least Batmans through Dick), Kyle and Plas.

All shows have good and bad episodes

So you do think some were bad? Which ones?

but over all, there was nothing that made me want to stop watching all together. Or call the whole thing complete crap.

Neither did I, or most of the other posters here, as far as I can tell.

As for Kalibak... Maybe I'm forgetting something here, but the only Batman/Kalibak fight I can remember is Batman stalling him until Superman could take him out. That was actually a great Superman moment, which showed how there are things Batman can't do and that Superman can.

Indeed, though it lasts all of 2 seconds before Supes says he thinks Bats could take him, and you're left groaning and rolling your eyes. Though I suppose Turpin took Kalibak out twice in the comics...

[Spike-X]

Without having read the thread...

The only problem I had with DCAU Superman is that there wasn't enough of it.

[Spike-X]

One thing I never understood, though, was why people referred to him as a "boy scout."

People seem to have a problem these days with superheroes behaving like decent, civilised human beings.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

[Spike-X]

It's true that DCAU Superman is pretty assertive and aggressive, when you stop to think about it. Maybe that's part of the reason why I liked him a lot - He was fittingly a man of quick and decisive action. He's perhaps the closest Superman has come to being a badass character.

Compared to the original Siegel/Shuster Supes, DCAU Supes was a pussycat.

[Spike-X]

Geez, check out the Golden Age character and the Fleischer cartoons. That guy was all about whooping ass.

And Golden Age Superman used to interrogate people in life-threatening ways that would make modern-day Batman squeamish.

Everything I wanna say, this guy has already said it first! I like this guy!

[Spike-X]

LOL. For years, I used to joke that the writers got strange enjoyment for every time Superman screamed and grunted in pain. Then I read this quote today from voicesfromkrypton:



If Superman is the only guy grunting in pain, you probably screwed up somewhere.

If you've got Superman causing somebody else enough pain to be screaming, you've definitely screwed up somewhere.

[Darrell D.]

Without having read the thread...

The only problem I had with DCAU Superman is that there wasn't enough of it.

Yep. One of the best versions of Superman.
The whole 'power-level' thing is a bit silly, to be honest. It never bothered me to see him punched around by heavy caliber bullets or lightning...the stories were good, the animation was bright and crisp, and that's all that mattered.

[Mat001]

Which is fine if he did it in a way that made sense, rather than suddenly being able to knock Darkseid aside with a kick. It was the precurser to the Wonder Woman stomach kick.

I have to watch "Destroyer" again. I don't really recall that.

That was cool (though I'm not sure why you say "able to take down 4 of his rogues" like that should be a big accomplishment for Superman...).

No, but they were making a big deal out of how tough Bane was with his new Venom dosage which made him stronger. Hence Bruce had a hard time in "Over The Edge" and "Mystery Of The Batwoman". Whereas Clark only had a small problem at first due to overestimating Bane.

Remember the Legends of the DCU in which Supes and Dick meet? and their hanging out with Bats in golden age Worlds Finest and alone in Nightwing Year 1 and the reason Dick took the name Nightwing in the first place? Or Superman carving his autograph into a piece of metal for Jason Todd? Or how intimidated Tim was fighting vampires with him or filling in for him with the rest of the super heroes in the second Metropolis Mailbag? I forget, has Damian met Supes yet? In the Gates Worlds Finest mini maybe? Either way I don't think they've met in the Nu52..

Damian met Supergirl. But that doesn't have anything to do with the cartoon.

If your argument is that it's based on the JLU Wally: while he may not be exceptionally mature, we do clearly see he's a police scientist like Barry was.

Yes, but he never really demonstrated that intelligence in the show. Only in the final season when going up against the Rogues.

Queen of Fables wasn't the second part of Tower of Babel: it's just the story that happens after it that has only a cameo from Batman because he's not on the team at that time. The Tower of Babel was followed up on the issue after that, with Supes and Bats making peace and sharing their secret identities with Wally (who you think would know at least Batmans through Dick), Kyle and Plas.

I wasn't referring to two part in the strictest sense.

So you do think some were bad? Which ones?

I didn't think any were bad. What I think is different from what you think.

Indeed, though it lasts all of 2 seconds before Supes says he thinks Bats could take him, and you're left groaning and rolling your eyes. Though I suppose Turpin took Kalibak out twice in the comics...

I only know the one time in The Adventures Of Superman Annual #7.

[DochaDocha]

Batman did knock Darkseid off balance in "Destroyer," and while I don't think that should've happened, it was abundantly clear on the show that Batman couldn't hurt Darkseid physically, and he was just doing something because doing nothing was not an option.

I got in a small discussion online the other day about the episode "Injustice for All," and I think what might've been worse than Superman's lack of power in season one of Justice League was his response to Luthor's cancer diagnosis. Superman got a little too soft for my liking. There have been a handful of stories in which Luthor was dying and Superman confronted Luthor, but unlike this cartoon episode, Superman tried to encourage Luthor to make his last few moments on Earth productive. In this cartoon episode, he just said he was sorry and asked Luthor if there was anything he could do, and took Luthor's berating.

Then later in this same episode (or at least 2-parter), when it was time to interrogate Copperhead, Copperhead just mocked Supes for being a boy scout, and Superman was left without answers and wondering how Batman can be so good at interrogating.

I'm challenged to think if there's a less interesting or compelling version of the character than the season 1 rendition.

[Spike-X]

Yep. One of the best versions of Superman.
The whole 'power-level' thing is a bit silly, to be honest. It never bothered me to see him punched around by heavy caliber bullets or lightning...the stories were good, the animation was bright and crisp, and that's all that mattered.

For me, it comes down to what you see as more heroic - the guy who's stronger than everyone and can win easily, or the guy who isn't, but fights (and wins) anyway?

[DochaDocha]

For me, it comes down to what you see as more heroic - the guy who's stronger than everyone and can win easily, or the guy who isn't, but fights (and wins) anyway?

This is also kind of a false dichotomy, in the regard that these aren't your only two options. You can have this option for various episodes, and you can have other episodes that pose very different challenges.

There's certainly room for episodes when Superman comes across a tougher guy (I really liked Darkseid's appearances in STAS, for instance, much better than in JL/JLU), but things start feeling more contrived if everyone hurts Superman just the same.

[Spike-X]

This is also kind of a false dichotomy, in the regard that these aren't your only two options. You can have this option for various episodes, and you can have other episodes that pose very different challenges.

There's certainly room for episodes when Superman comes across a tougher guy (I really liked Darkseid's appearances in STAS, for instance, much better than in JL/JLU), but things start feeling more contrived if everyone hurts Superman just the same.

Fair point.

[Mat001]

Batman did knock Darkseid off balance in "Destroyer," and while I don't think that should've happened, it was abundantly clear on the show that Batman couldn't hurt Darkseid physically, and he was just doing something because doing nothing was not an option.

To be fair, Captain America once knocked the Hulk over when he wasn't being aggressive. I don't think the show ever made a deal that someone couldn't be knocked down through force.

I got in a small discussion online the other day about the episode "Injustice for All," and I think what might've been worse than Superman's lack of power in season one of Justice League was his response to Luthor's cancer diagnosis. Superman got a little too soft for my liking. There have been a handful of stories in which Luthor was dying and Superman confronted Luthor, but unlike this cartoon episode, Superman tried to encourage Luthor to make his last few moments on Earth productive. In this cartoon episode, he just said he was sorry and asked Luthor if there was anything he could do, and took Luthor's berating.

What can you say that doesn't sound condescending to a guy who hates your guts and wants you dead.

Then later in this same episode (or at least 2-parter), when it was time to interrogate Copperhead, Copperhead just mocked Supes for being a boy scout, and Superman was left without answers and wondering how Batman can be so good at interrogating.

I'm challenged to think if there's a less interesting or compelling version of the character than the season 1 rendition.

The thing is that after the Golden Age, Superman was never as intimidating as Batman was. Which had nothing to do with Batman being the Bat God, and everything to do with making Superman more passive than aggressive as he was in the beginning. That's why Morrison's take and to a lesser degree, Waid's before it, had mixed reactions. More people were used to a Superman who wasn't intimidating than one who could be. Batman could be a tough guy because he made fear a weapon. Superman doesn't rely on fear which is why he cannot intimidate people. This was way before "Injustice For All".

[dupersuper]

Clark only had a small problem at first due to overestimating Bane.

I assume you meant underestimating.

I didn't think any were bad. What I think is different from what you think.

But...you said every show had good and bad episodes...

I only know the one time in The Adventures Of Superman Annual #7.

That was a post Crisis reworking of a scene in Kirbys original New Gods books.

I got in a small discussion online the other day about the episode "Injustice for All," and I think what might've been worse than Superman's lack of power in season one of Justice League was his response to Luthor's cancer diagnosis. Superman got a little too soft for my liking. There have been a handful of stories in which Luthor was dying and Superman confronted Luthor, but unlike this cartoon episode, Superman tried to encourage Luthor to make his last few moments on Earth productive. In this cartoon episode, he just said he was sorry and asked Luthor if there was anything he could do, and took Luthor's berating.

Then later in this same episode (or at least 2-parter), when it was time to interrogate Copperhead, Copperhead just mocked Supes for being a boy scout, and Superman was left without answers and wondering how Batman can be so good at interrogating.

I'm challenged to think if there's a less interesting or compelling version of the character than the season 1 rendition.

I can find a character who regrets even an enemies death and is too nice a guy to torture people as perfectly interesting and compelling...

For me, it comes down to what you see as more heroic - the guy who's stronger than everyone and can win easily, or the guy who isn't, but fights (and wins) anyway?

That's always struck me as a false dichotomy: Supes has always won against high odds, whether it's when he looses his powers or when he runs up against some one even more powerful.

This is also kind of a false dichotomy

Crap: I swore I responded to Spike-X's post before I read yours. Weird.

To be fair, Captain America once knocked the Hulk over when he wasn't being aggressive. I don't think the show ever made a deal that someone couldn't be knocked down through force.

It's about internal consistency. If Superman and Orion can pound him and barely move him (except after Supermans "world of cardboard" speech), Batman shouldn't be moving him no matter how hard he jumps at him.

The thing is that after the Golden Age, Superman was never as intimidating as Batman was. Which had nothing to do with Batman being the Bat God, and everything to do with making Superman more passive than aggressive as he was in the beginning. That's why Morrison's take and to a lesser degree, Waid's before it, had mixed reactions. More people were used to a Superman who wasn't intimidating than one who could be. Batman could be a tough guy because he made fear a weapon. Superman doesn't rely on fear which is why he cannot intimidate people.

I wouldn't say he can't intimidate people, just that it's not his go-to move like it is with Bats. When he really wants to he usually can: he just needs to remind the person how powerful he is and that he's not human (glowing red eyes are a good start when he's doing this). I think it's easier for him to do with some one who he hasn't fought in open battle before though: Copperhead would be wel aware how careful he is not to hurt people.