DCAU Superman Problems

[BBally]

I think STAS was the best adaptation when it came to his supporting characters (along with Lois and Clark and even Smallville at times), they improved upon the Lex Luthor tycoon idea buy actually showing him being a genius like Luthor should be, also Clancy Brown owns Michael Rosenbaum, Gene Hackman and Kevin Spacey in the role. Lobo is always fun to have around, you can actually say he was a Superman character during the 90's. While not the best portrayal of Superman himself, he still felt like Superman and did use his smarts at times.

Finally, Michael Ironside as Darkseid, enough said.

[DiceRoll]

Bruce didn't disable the Injustice League. He turned them against each other. That doesn't make Batman better than the League. That just meant that in the story Bruce showed how he could be useful. Remember that he was hurt by Copperhead and when everyone was telling him to stay out of it, he went ahead and proved his worth to the team. Or are you referring to a different episode? And let's not forget that Bruce doesn't even fight Mongul in "For The Man Who Has Everything". As to Sinestro, are we talking "Justice League" or "The Batman"? I haven't seen some of these in a while.

I think he means this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1btlLGy6qvc

[DochaDocha]

So there was an error. Not like they don't exist in films and television. Even animation has errors.

And any error made in film or television is subject to criticism.

Bruce didn't disable the Injustice League. He turned them against each other. That doesn't make Batman better than the League. That just meant that in the story Bruce showed how he could be useful. Remember that he was hurt by Copperhead and when everyone was telling him to stay out of it, he went ahead and proved his worth to the team. Or are you referring to a different episode? And let's not forget that Bruce doesn't even fight Mongul in "For The Man Who Has Everything". As to Sinestro, are we talking "Justice League" or "The Batman"? I haven't seen some of these in a while.

It's a different episode, "Fury," and yes, he knocks 5 Injustice Gang members unconscious in under 60 seconds.

http://youtu.be/X6CgImPDNhg?t=1m56s

You shouldn't have a case in which it takes 6 JL members nearly one episode to beat 6 IG members, and then let Batman beat 5 of them in under 60 seconds in another.

The Sinestro incident was already covered.

B:TAS was designed in the style of the Fleischer "Superman" cartoon shorts, as well as the live action films. With a dash of the Bronze Age mixed in. Despite being seriously limited in the first couple of seasons due to strict censorship guidelines from FOX Kids, they were able to emphasize the dangers in being Batman. Something that couldn't be done with the previous cartoons. With JL and JLU, they were following the guidelines set up by Morrison and Waid's run on the JLA series, complete with prep time. Likewise at the start of JL, the feeling from Bruce Timm was that if you have Superman or the Flash, then the threat would be over too quickly. Not just that, but they were still feeling their way around the team dynamic. Three years earlier, Timm stated that he wasn't interested in a JLA series, because he felt it would not only be like "Super Friends", but also a difficult challenge in making everyone look good. When season one began, it was only a year and a half since completing "The Call".

And there's nothing wrong with a Superman who isn't insanely powerful. I mean, didn't Grant Morrison receive quite a bit of praise for his powered down Superman?

I think I already mentioned in this thread there are a lot of good ways to write Superman, and that I happen to prefer not as weak as he was in much of the DCAU.

I also think it's kind of stupid on the writers' part to be so vocally wary about making sure that Superman and Flash can't beat too many villains by themselves, and yet they have scenes like the one I linked to. I think it's also really stupid to voice that concern, and then have scenes like in "Wild Cards" when every Justice League member is paralyzed by Ace's powers, yet Batman can continue to battle. It's not good if you have an episode in which Superman can't do anything to slow down Sinestro for an entire episode, and yet Batman can take Sinestro completely out of the fight with one flick of his Batarang. At least it didn't go into the stupidity of "The Brave and the Bold" (I liked that show, on occasion) in which guys like Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Plastic Man, Green Arrow, etc., combined can't defeat battle machines as effectively as Batman could single-handedly.

But make no mistake, I was a big fan of JL/JLU, season two to the end. I watched every episode, and with exception of the couple I really hated, I've watched all of them multiple times. When I complain about something, it's a specific complaint, not something I generalize about the entire show. If I complain about something from an episode, it doesn't mean I think the episode sucks, it just means I didn't like that part of the episode.

[Darth Joker]

I'd further add that BTAS probably overemphasized a lot of Batman's limitations as a hero, as he often took a lot of punishment from fights, but once the universe expanded they started glossing over said limitations. Maybe that was a problem with STAS: they used a similar playbook for scripting fights that they used in the early BTAS years.

Just for full disclosure, I think BTAS was great, but STAS less so.

The way I look at BTAS is that this is a "young" Batman in the sense of a Batman without much experience at actually being Batman. So he's a touch more sloppy than most incarnations of Batman. On the flip side, though, he's a bit more human. The Bruce Wayne of BTAS actually comes across as a warm man to me (you see this a lot in the arc in which Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face).

By the time that Justice League comes around, Batman is a much more polished hero, but also a bit more dickish/less human. It's a believable trade-off - Years of being Batman has made him a much more refined superhero, but also has numbed him as a human being in many ways.

[Auguste Dupin]

The way I look at BTAS is that this is a "young" Batman in the sense of a Batman without much experience at actually being Batman. So he's a touch more sloppy than most incarnations of Batman. On the flip side, though, he's a bit more human. The Bruce Wayne of BTAS actually comes across as a warm man to me (you see this a lot in the arc in which Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face).

By the time that Justice League comes around, Batman is a much more polished hero, but also a bit more dickish/less human. It's a believable trade-off - Years of being Batman has made him a much more refined superhero, but also has numbed him as a human being in many ways.

In BTAS, Batman was already Batman when Robin's parents got murdered when he was 8-12. In the show, Robin was at least 17 (more likely 19, since he goes to college).
So he has been Batman for quite a while.

[Coyote2010]

Per usual, with Bruce Timm, I love all the designs with Superman the Animated Series. I have a huge bust of his Superman made out of polyurethane and its majestic.
Unlike Batman though, I don't know if anyone watches Superman the Animated Series and says that this is the definitive take on the character. That's arguable with the Batman series, but the Superman doesn't hit those marks.

I think they were using a too narrow interpretation of the character that was based on post crisis stylings almost exclusively.

[Mat001]

I think he means this.

Ah, that one. I've only gotten to see that one once. It's not unreasonable that Bruce's Batarang isn't modified to deal with Sinestro, especially since the yellow ring is similar to the green and he would have John help him with it.

And any error made in film or television is subject to criticism.

Errors as in someone on the writing staff forgot what was written earlier.

You shouldn't have a case in which it takes 6 JL members nearly one episode to beat 6 IG members, and then let Batman beat 5 of them in under 60 seconds in another.

Except there's two different situations here. One episode was designed for the whole two part episode. The other a prologue that was meant to set up Fury, whom Bruce gets his ass handed to because he doesn't know her. It should also be noted that this is the second encounter with the Injustice League and as such, Bruce would have time to prepare for them. "Fury" was not designed to be a rehash of "Injustice For All". And it's not like we haven't seen this type of thing before in the shows that came before it, where said character has trouble beating his foe and then the next time, it goes down quite smoothly.

I think I already mentioned in this thread there are a lot of good ways to write Superman, and that I happen to prefer not as weak as he was in much of the DCAU.

I also think it's kind of stupid on the writers' part to be so vocally wary about making sure that Superman and Flash can't beat too many villains by themselves, and yet they have scenes like the one I linked to. I think it's also really stupid to voice that concern, and then have scenes like in "Wild Cards" when every Justice League member is paralyzed by Ace's powers, yet Batman can continue to battle.

Bruce doesn't exactly fight. He gets his ass kicked by the Joker, complete with a broken rib or two. But you must also remember something. Each episode is written to the specific character. Be it a guest star, or a main character. "Wild Cards", in particular, was written as a Batman centric JL episode. Meaning the same thing would happen in his own show. Otherwise, it would have been someone else.

It's not good if you have an episode in which Superman can't do anything to slow down Sinestro for an entire episode, and yet Batman can take Sinestro completely out of the fight with one flick of his Batarang. At least it didn't go into the stupidity of "The Brave and the Bold" (I liked that show, on occasion) in which guys like Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Plastic Man, Green Arrow, etc., combined can't defeat battle machines as effectively as Batman could single-handedly.

Only if Bruce prepared for dealing with Sinestro. "In Brightest Day" was designed around Green Lantern. Just like "The Return Of Black Adam" was designed around Captain Marvel. In both cases, Superman would have trouble fighting the guest villain on his own. In "Secret Society", Batman takes down Clayface, whom he has dealt with before and Sinestro, who's bag of tricks he's familiar with thanks to John, but he isn't able to take down the rest of the team.

[DochaDocha]

Ah, that one. I've only gotten to see that one once. It's not unreasonable that Bruce's Batarang isn't modified to deal with Sinestro, especially since the yellow ring is similar to the green and he would have John help him with it.

I disagree with this.

Except there's two different situations here. One episode was designed for the whole two part episode. The other a prologue that was meant to set up Fury, whom Bruce gets his ass handed to because he doesn't know her. It should also be noted that this is the second encounter with the Injustice League and as such, Bruce would have time to prepare for them. "Fury" was not designed to be a rehash of "Injustice For All". And it's not like we haven't seen this type of thing before in the shows that came before it, where said character has trouble beating his foe and then the next time, it goes down quite smoothly.

Yeah, they're different situations, but there's no need to make the villains job just to progress a scene. They were getting KO'd one hit a piece. You can't make villains extremely formidable one episode, and then pitiful in the next.

Bruce doesn't exactly fight. He gets his ass kicked by the Joker, complete with a broken rib or two. But you must also remember something. Each episode is written to the specific character. Be it a guest star, or a main character. "Wild Cards", in particular, was written as a Batman centric JL episode. Meaning the same thing would happen in his own show. Otherwise, it would have been someone else.

Actually, that's another complaint I have about the action sequences on the show. When Joker or Harley want to hit Batman, they just walk up to him and hit him. But when someone else's rogues want to hit him, it becomes nearly impossible. I mean, WTH? I get it, you use specific characters to be specific challenges, but use some better sort of consistent logic.

Only if Bruce prepared for dealing with Sinestro. "In Brightest Day" was designed around Green Lantern. Just like "The Return Of Black Adam" was designed around Captain Marvel. In both cases, Superman would have trouble fighting the guest villain on his own. In "Secret Society", Batman takes down Clayface, whom he has dealt with before and Sinestro, who's bag of tricks he's familiar with thanks to John, but he isn't able to take down the rest of the team.

I guess I disagree that Batman should ever be so completely prepared for Sinestro that all it takes is a Batarang flick to take him out of the fight, unless that involved something like stealing Captain Marvel's powers. Clayface I understand by surprising him with an electric shock, but not Sinestro using a Batarang flick to the face.

[Frank Fournier]

You're complaining about DCAU Superman problems. But, man, DCAU Wonder Woman had way more serious problems. And I agree with this Batgod problem in DCAU.

[DiceRoll]

Ah, that one. I've only gotten to see that one once. It's not unreasonable that Bruce's Batarang isn't modified to deal with Sinestro, especially since the yellow ring is similar to the green and he would have John help him with it.

The fact that A) You have to fill in the blank yourself like that and B) You consider that an acceptable answer pretty much proves how bad the whole Batgod problem has gotten.

Actually, that's another complaint I have about the action sequences on the show. When Joker or Harley want to hit Batman, they just walk up to him and hit him. But when someone else's rogues want to hit him, it becomes nearly impossible. I mean, WTH? I get it, you use specific characters to be specific challenges, but use some better sort of consistent logic.

Amen to that.

You're complaining about DCAU Superman problems. But, man, DCAU Wonder Woman had way more serious problems. And I agree with this Batgod problem in DCAU.

And there was a topic made about it. On the WW Boards. Before this one was made.

[Mat001]

I disagree with this.

You can disagree, but that is quite possible. Remember, in the comics, he developed protocols for taking out the League. Including a Green Lantern. It is not unreasonable for Bruce to do this and use John as a guinea pig.

Yeah, they're different situations, but there's no need to make the villains job just to progress a scene. They were getting KO'd one hit a piece. You can't make villains extremely formidable one episode, and then pitiful in the next.

The Shade is a normal guy. He can be taken out in one good punch. Copperhead was beaten by Bruce, if I recall. Grundy was taken out by a strong jolt of electricity. Star Sapphire was taken out by her own power. Tsukuri was the only new member and that's reasonable for Bruce to take her out.

Actually, that's another complaint I have about the action sequences on the show. When Joker or Harley want to hit Batman, they just walk up to him and hit him. But when someone else's rogues want to hit him, it becomes nearly impossible. I mean, WTH? I get it, you use specific characters to be specific challenges, but use some better sort of consistent logic.

In this episode, the Joker had an advantage. In "Injustice For All", Bruce was distracted and not 100%.

I guess I disagree that Batman should ever be so completely prepared for Sinestro that all it takes is a Batarang flick to take him out of the fight, unless that involved something like stealing Captain Marvel's powers. Clayface I understand by surprising him with an electric shock, but not Sinestro using a Batarang flick to the face.

Note that the rings are shown to have limits, where they can be hit inspite of the barrier surrounding them.

The fact that A) You have to fill in the blank yourself like that and B) You consider that an acceptable answer pretty much proves how bad the whole Batgod problem has gotten.

That depends on if you consider it a problem.

[DochaDocha]

You can disagree, but that is quite possible. Remember, in the comics, he developed protocols for taking out the League. Including a Green Lantern. It is not unreasonable for Bruce to do this and use John as a guinea pig.

When you consider all the times in the show they've explicitly shown that Batman had specialty Batarangs that would do things such as explode, or conduct powerful electric currents, the fact that the Batarang didn't appear to do anything out of the ordinary leaves me to believe it was a garden variety Batarang. Also, KO'ing Sinestro with one Batarang hit, any type of Batarang, is lame.

The Shade is a normal guy. He can be taken out in one good punch. Copperhead was beaten by Bruce, if I recall. Grundy was taken out by a strong jolt of electricity. Star Sapphire was taken out by her own power. Tsukuri was the only new member and that's reasonable for Bruce to take her out.

And it still looked like they all jobbed considering how tenaciously they fought in the previous episode.


Anyway, it looks like we might be stuck in an infinite loop of point/counterpoint, so I'll just say I didn't like all those things I mentioned, but I'm glad that some Supes fans were able to get enjoyment out of some of the things I really disliked.

[Mat001]

When you consider all the times in the show they've explicitly shown that Batman had specialty Batarangs that would do things such as explode, or conduct powerful electric currents, the fact that the Batarang didn't appear to do anything out of the ordinary leaves me to believe it was a garden variety Batarang.

Even if it was just that, hitting someone in the head is enough to take them out. We've seen John be hit despite his ring.

Also, KO'ing Sinestro with one Batarang hit, any type of Batarang, is lame.

Why?

And it still looked like they all jobbed considering how tenaciously they fought in the previous episode.

Again, they weren't going to have a big fight in this episode. They were running from Bruce in this episode, when he engaged them. The only ones who really fought Bruce was Star Sapphire and Tsukuri. The former mostly fought John and the latter was a newcommer to the team.

[DiceRoll]

Why?

Because it not only effectively buries Sinestro, but every Green Lantern/Superman/any superhero that fought him and had trouble. Let's say I came up to you, showed you that scene and said, "That's Sinestro. The greatest enemy of the Green Lantern Corps." What would your reaction be?

Or for another World's Finest example, the scene where Superman had his suit melted and was pretty much at the Joker's mercy. Not only did it make Supes look like an idiot (because he didn't just take the damn rock away from Joker when he had the chance) it made all of Superman's enemies look bad because they were so effortlessly one-upped.

And then there's Batman punching out Cheetah. The point is you have to be careful when having heroes fight another brand's hero/villain.

[Coyote2010]

For me, Batman taking out a Lantern with a batarang works only if its a batarang that takes out a space ship.