DCAU Superman Problems

[Last Son]

But that's the big problem, if Superman is supremely powerful, how do you write villains who can pose a threat to Superman somehow, without resorting to alien overlords every week? In a cartoon, kids are going to want to see a few action scenes and the action scenes are not going to be fun for the kids if Superman just brushes off everything the villain throws at him. A supremely powerful Superman sounds cool in theory, but in practice its really hard to write stories around him.

Part of the problem with Superman Returns is, after Superman lifted up an island filled with Kryptonite, its hard to imagine what could pose a challenge to him.

You resort to characters like Parasite who aren't necessarily as powerful as Superman but have an ability (whether it be a superpower or genius intellect) that essentially brings him down to their level. A villain doesn't have to be as strong as Superman to challenge him, they just need an ability that even with all his strength and invulnerability, he can't quite handle for whatever reason. Call it the kryptonite effect. It's not literally kryptonite, but it exploits a hole in Superman's defenses without having to be some super ultra mega death ray that could incinerate the whole universe.

[Coyote2010]

You resort to characters like Parasite who aren't necessarily as powerful as Superman but have an ability (whether it be a superpower or genius intellect) that essentially brings him down to their level. A villain doesn't have to be as strong as Superman to challenge him, they just need an ability that even with all his strength and invulnerability, he can't quite handle for whatever reason. Call it the kryptonite effect. It's not literally kryptonite, but it exploits a hole in Superman's defenses without having to be some super ultra mega death ray that could incinerate the whole universe.

I think having challenges for Superman is fine, he can't break Braniacs Force Field for example, but the problem I had with the DCAU (season 1 really) was that Superman was easily taken out and one dimensional. He never seemed liked a thinker.

I recently watched Justice League Doom and there is one scene where Cyborg is using all his equiptment to run analysis, all I could think was, "hey just like Superman's Super senses!" Except of course Superman having an evolved mind seemed out of character at that time.

I dislike the idea that in order to highlight the rest of the League, Superman has to be a slug first brute that is forever overconfident and lacking any analytic or mental skills.

I like the idea of Superman sized threats, Parasite, Bizarro, Mxyzptlk, Mongul.... In the case of the Prankster, the threat isn't to Superman (though Kryptonite banana cream pies should suffice) the threat is to Metropolis. Sure the Prankster shouldn't take up a 7 issue crossover event, but guys like Prankster are the stuff Superman deals with on the way to taking out Solaris.

[DochaDocha]

Since STAS was a kid's show, I'd definitely say there's room for slapstick comedy on the show. I would've loved to have seen Supes take banana cream pie to the face, or sit on an exploding whoopie cushion. Guys like Toyman and Prankster could've been like the annoying class clown.

One of the big issues with the JLA-related cartoons was that they tried to give every character a niche role on the team, and since Batman had so little to contribute physically (on the surface, at least; in several episodes, he seemed physically capable to get mixed up in the fray as other League members), they let him be the brains and the benefactor, leaving little room for other characters to impart their own wisdom and expertise.

[Francisco]

That's kinda what I meant, didn't express myself well enough. He is a GOD. And he should act like it. But then he'd be boring.

What threats are there to stop a GOD? A giant Christopher Hitchens robot?

No. He's not a GOD. He's a man who weilds powers of a god.
You just answered your own question. Giant robots, monsters, alien overlords and social issues that can't simply be punched or heat visioned away.
Yes, Supes can easily beat up Bruno Mainhem's thugs but can he prove it was Bruno and not little Timmy's dad whom stole the money? Enter Clark Kent investigative reporter.

[Francisco]

Since STAS was a kid's show, I'd definitely say there's room for slapstick comedy on the show. I would've loved to have seen Supes take banana cream pie to the face, or sit on an exploding whoopie cushion. Guys like Toyman and Prankster could've been like the annoying class clown.

One of the big issues with the JLA-related cartoons was that they tried to give every character a niche role on the team, and since Batman had so little to contribute physically (on the surface, at least; in several episodes, he seemed physically capable to get mixed up in the fray as other League members), they let him be the brains and the benefactor, leaving little room for other characters to impart their own wisdom and expertise.

They had Batman all over the place. Dodging the Omega effect and drop kicking Darkseid. It was all about making him overcompetent while Superman looked like an amateur. They did the same during the World Finest movie in which they even had Batman hooking up with Lois. Bruce Timm and co, didn't waste any oportunity to downgrade, downplay Superman.

[Surtur]

I'll always love the DCAU. Just that entire universe..they captured something special with it. The current DC cartoons certainly aren't bad(they are quite good) but they just don't capture the magic of the DCAU. Maybe it was just because it was a big shared universe, but it was awesome. The main difference between DCAU Supes and comic Supes is power levels. Granted their personalities aren't 100% alike, but there are some similarities. He does some things you might not of thought comic Supes would do..like beating down Captain Marvel despite technically having a good reason to do so. I also still wonder why he had to start destroying the park made for the kids instead of just spinning around at high speeds in order to go underground(which he does anyways).

I remember people believing Diana to be respected better in the strength department and people were upset about that.

I don't quite understand what you're saying, but perhaps you are talking about the travesty that was the Superman vs Wonder Woman fight from the cartoon? Here is my problem with that fight in a nut shell: Superman is a good deal more powerful then WW. I mean..for instance, WW *breaks her hands* by punching Mongul. Think about that for a second. Superman would of straight up killed Mongul had he not hesitated and Wonder Woman can't even punch the guy without harming herself.

Now I know eventually during that fight Supes stopped trying to fight back, but it wasn't for the entire fight though.

They had Batman all over the place. Dodging the Omega effect and drop kicking Darkseid. It was all about making him overcompetent while Superman looked like an amateur. They did the same during the World Finest movie in which they even had Batman hooking up with Lois. Bruce Timm and co, didn't waste any oportunity to downgrade, downplay Superman.

This is why a part of me dislikes Batman because it really seems like to make him useful they have to dumb down a lot of other characters when he is around.

[DiceRoll]

They had Batman all over the place. Dodging the Omega effect and drop kicking Darkseid. It was all about making him overcompetent while Superman looked like an amateur. They did the same during the World Finest movie in which they even had Batman hooking up with Lois. Bruce Timm and co, didn't waste any oportunity to downgrade, downplay Superman.

And then there was the epic Sinestro vs Batman fight.

[Mat001]

They had Batman all over the place. Dodging the Omega effect and drop kicking Darkseid. It was all about making him overcompetent while Superman looked like an amateur.

Actually, that scene had a point to it. Darkseid considered humans beneath him and Batman, a human, manages to show that they are more than just mere insects. Superman himself still manages to give Darkseid a beating.

They did the same during the World Finest movie in which they even had Batman hooking up with Lois. Bruce Timm and co, didn't waste any oportunity to downgrade, downplay Superman.

That wasn't downgrading Clark. That was throwing a wrinkle into the love triangle story. In part three, Lois realizes the problem presented before her. She loves Superman, but she doesn't like Clark beyond being friends with him. And she's tired of coming second to Superman. So when Bruce Wayne enters the picture, she finds the kind of guy that she can like in him, that she cannot with Clark and will be there for her unlike Superman. But then she finds out that he's Batman and that puts a dampener on things, because he can be hurt and he can die. And he will not stop being Batman. It is the opposite of the relationship with Clark.

It wasn't about downgrading, it was about showing the complexity of what Lois wants in a companion.

[DiceRoll]

Actually, that scene had a point to it. Darkseid considered humans beneath him and Batman, a human, manages to show that they are more than just mere insects. Superman himself still manages to give Darkseid a beating.

To be fair, while it was framed and presented well, it was ultimately a few punches that he instantly recovered from. Not exactly a beating in my book.

[DochaDocha]

Actually, that scene had a point to it. Darkseid considered humans beneath him and Batman, a human, manages to show that they are more than just mere insects. Superman himself still manages to give Darkseid a beating.

No, it was overboard. Darkseid then says after Batman manages to dodge the Omegas something along the lines about how no one ever managed to dodge them before. Now keep in mind, in the grand scheme of things, humans (including the most agile such as Batman) are closer to slugs in speed than they are to the super-speedsters in the DCU and DCAU. Now, one could say that there are mitigating circumstances concerning Darkseid's line: Darkseid could've just been boasting. In a previous episode, Superman clearly dodged an Omega from Darkseid, so either way his statement isn't accurate. Nonetheless, I thought it was just showing how great Batman is even to bother mentioning the line, which isn't valid.

That wasn't downgrading Clark. That was throwing a wrinkle into the love triangle story. In part three, Lois realizes the problem presented before her. She loves Superman, but she doesn't like Clark beyond being friends with him. And she's tired of coming second to Superman. So when Bruce Wayne enters the picture, she finds the kind of guy that she can like in him, that she cannot with Clark and will be there for her unlike Superman. But then she finds out that he's Batman and that puts a dampener on things, because he can be hurt and he can die. And he will not stop being Batman. It is the opposite of the relationship with Clark.

It wasn't about downgrading, it was about showing the complexity of what Lois wants in a companion.

I think it was okay to explore a story between Lois and Bruce Wayne, as it worked on a lot of levels. I only find it disappointing because that means that because Superman and Lois didn't get together until the very end of the show, or possibly even after, that means Bruce Wayne and Lois had a deeper relationship throughout the bulk of the series. And even though this shouldn't matter, I'm one of those guys who gets annoyed when you have to hear people talk about how Batman "took Superman's woman" and Superman did nothing about it. Or think about it this way, would the show ever portray another guy making Batman jealous by hitting on a traditional Batman love interest? I find that unlikely.

[Mat001]

To be fair, while it was framed and presented well, it was ultimately a few punches that he instantly recovered from. Not exactly a beating in my book.

That's because that fight had already been shown in "Legacy" and "Twilight".

No, it was overboard. Darkseid then says after Batman manages to dodge the Omegas something along the lines about how no one ever managed to dodge them before. Now keep in mind, in the grand scheme of things, humans (including the most agile such as Batman) are closer to slugs in speed than they are to the super-speedsters in the DCU and DCAU. Now, one could say that there are mitigating circumstances concerning Darkseid's line: Darkseid could've just been boasting. In a previous episode, Superman clearly dodged an Omega from Darkseid, so either way his statement isn't accurate. Nonetheless, I thought it was just showing how great Batman is even to bother mentioning the line, which isn't valid.

So, again, how is this a problem?

I think it was okay to explore a story between Lois and Bruce Wayne, as it worked on a lot of levels. I only find it disappointing because that means that because Superman and Lois didn't get together until the very end of the show, or possibly even after, that means Bruce Wayne and Lois had a deeper relationship throughout the bulk of the series. And even though this shouldn't matter, I'm one of those guys who gets annoyed when you have to hear people talk about how Batman "took Superman's woman" and Superman did nothing about it. Or think about it this way, would the show ever portray another guy making Batman jealous by hitting on a traditional Batman love interest? I find that unlikely.

In the show? No. In the comics, his relationship with Vicki Vale ended because she found herself attracted to a fellow reporter, who didn't have the hang-ups Bruce's public persona had. As to Batman's own show, well, in "Mask Of The Phantasm", Arthur Reeves tried to move in on Andrea Beaumont even though he knew that Bruce would find out about her return. Andrea even tried to rub his nose in by kissing Arthur, while Bruce was inside her apartment in the shadows. People who talked about "World's Finest" forget about "Mask Of The Phantasm" and instead, try to be an asshat towards other Superman fans.

[DochaDocha]

Who's being an asshat? I hope that wasn't directed at me...

Anyway, the Omega beam comment is a problem because it's either a mistake, or it's simply not true, and it (at least to me) felt like they were just looking for an excuse to compliment Batman. Best case scenario, they were just showing how Darkseid is just one of those insecure fellows who makes excuses whenever things don't go as he plans, which probably is the case, but the line just didn't feel right to me. Remember, we're talking about a show in which the other 6 Justice Leaguers spent 2 episodes to beat 6 members of the Injustice Gang when Batman was able to disable 5 of those 6 guys in 1 minute in another episode, or when Kalibak KO's Wonder Woman but then gets schooled by Batman directly afterward, or Batman KO'd Sinestro by flicking a Batarang at him, etc. Accident or not, the show had a distinct flavor of propping up Batman, so when you hear a line about how Batman was the only person to dodge an Omega Beam, it feels like more excessive praise.

[Kurosawa]

I didn't like the DCAU at all. I loved Batman TAS, but the Superman TAS failed and I didn't like the JL of no A series either...they managed to treat Hawkman with even less respect than they did Superman.

[DochaDocha]

I'd further add that BTAS probably overemphasized a lot of Batman's limitations as a hero, as he often took a lot of punishment from fights, but once the universe expanded they started glossing over said limitations. Maybe that was a problem with STAS: they used a similar playbook for scripting fights that they used in the early BTAS years.

Just for full disclosure, I think BTAS was great, but STAS less so.

[Mat001]

Who's being an asshat? I hope that wasn't directed at me...

No, it wasn't.

Anyway, the Omega beam comment is a problem because it's either a mistake, or it's simply not true, and it (at least to me) felt like they were just looking for an excuse to compliment Batman. Best case scenario, they were just showing how Darkseid is just one of those insecure fellows who makes excuses whenever things don't go as he plans, which probably is the case, but the line just didn't feel right to me.

So there was an error. Not like they don't exist in films and television. Even animation has errors.

Remember, we're talking about a show in which the other 6 Justice Leaguers spent 2 episodes to beat 6 members of the Injustice Gang when Batman was able to disable 5 of those 6 guys in 1 minute in another episode, or when Kalibak KO's Wonder Woman but then gets schooled by Batman directly afterward, or Batman KO'd Sinestro by flicking a Batarang at him, etc. Accident or not, the show had a distinct flavor of propping up Batman, so when you hear a line about how Batman was the only person to dodge an Omega Beam, it feels like more excessive praise.

Bruce didn't disable the Injustice League. He turned them against each other. That doesn't make Batman better than the League. That just meant that in the story Bruce showed how he could be useful. Remember that he was hurt by Copperhead and when everyone was telling him to stay out of it, he went ahead and proved his worth to the team. Or are you referring to a different episode? And let's not forget that Bruce doesn't even fight Mongul in "For The Man Who Has Everything". As to Sinestro, are we talking "Justice League" or "The Batman"? I haven't seen some of these in a while.

I'd further add that BTAS probably overemphasized a lot of Batman's limitations as a hero, as he often took a lot of punishment from fights, but once the universe expanded they started glossing over said limitations. Maybe that was a problem with STAS: they used a similar playbook for scripting fights that they used in the early BTAS years.

B:TAS was designed in the style of the Fleischer "Superman" cartoon shorts, as well as the live action films. With a dash of the Bronze Age mixed in. Despite being seriously limited in the first couple of seasons due to strict censorship guidelines from FOX Kids, they were able to emphasize the dangers in being Batman. Something that couldn't be done with the previous cartoons. With JL and JLU, they were following the guidelines set up by Morrison and Waid's run on the JLA series, complete with prep time. Likewise at the start of JL, the feeling from Bruce Timm was that if you have Superman or the Flash, then the threat would be over too quickly. Not just that, but they were still feeling their way around the team dynamic. Three years earlier, Timm stated that he wasn't interested in a JLA series, because he felt it would not only be like "Super Friends", but also a difficult challenge in making everyone look good. When season one began, it was only a year and a half since completing "The Call".

And there's nothing wrong with a Superman who isn't insanely powerful. I mean, didn't Grant Morrison receive quite a bit of praise for his powered down Superman?