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  1. #31
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    While the Smallville Chronicles were really good the rest of the show wasn't very dynamic and the characters weren't really developed as far as I'm concerned.

    I really don't understand the complaint about his power level in the DCU, it was similar to fleischer cartoon. In fact he was probably stronger from the outset. Fleischer Superman was closer to the original comic version. He wasn't crafted as some all-powerful demi-god that some seem to prefer but a bullet-proof action hero. In the Fleischer cartoon he was often knocked around and hurt by conventional means. That's essentially what DCU did but to a lesser degree. In fact they gave him a growth arc (lack of a better term) if you compare his powers at the beginning of the series to the end of Justice League he was far more powerful. I think that's a great handle on Superman, he starts out less powerful but as he gets older, faces more threats, and absorbs more sunlight he progressively gets stronger. Even the new 52 seems to use that idea.
    I would agree with you if it was made clear that they were trying to show him slowly gain powers, but I don't believe at all that it was intended to be that way. There are interviews floating around on the internet about how they intentionally made him weaker to make the storytelling easier. More to the point, there are also interviews that point out that the reason they beefed up Superman for the second season of JL was not because they were showing him get stronger with time, but because fans were complaining that they made him wimpy. See the following demonstration:

    Season 1


    Season 2


    I'd say the first GIF is kind of a generic, superhero action scene. That could be one of dozens of heroes. The second one is one of those is trademark Superman, which happens to be both dramatic and funny, and is only possible if you don't dumb down the character's strength like they did in S1 of JL and all of STAS.

    The point is, you can have Superman is kind of powerful, you can have him nearly unstoppable, or you can have him somewhere in between, and any of those can make for good stories. I happen to dislike the kind of powerful, as I thought it was lazy on the writers' part, as evidenced by the fact that they admitted to toning him down for ease of conflict-writing and the fact that they were able to up his power and still tell good stories.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I would agree with you if it was made clear that they were trying to show him slowly gain powers, but I don't believe at all that it was intended to be that way. There are interviews floating around on the internet about how they intentionally made him weaker to make the storytelling easier. More to the point, there are also interviews that point out that the reason they beefed up Superman for the second season of JL was not because they were showing him get stronger with time, but because fans were complaining that they made him wimpy. See the following demonstration:

    Season 1


    Season 2


    I'd say the first GIF is kind of a generic, superhero action scene. That could be one of dozens of heroes. The second one is one of those is trademark Superman, which happens to be both dramatic and funny, and is only possible if you don't dumb down the character's strength like they did in S1 of JL and all of STAS.

    The point is, you can have Superman is kind of powerful, you can have him nearly unstoppable, or you can have him somewhere in between, and any of those can make for good stories. I happen to dislike the kind of powerful, as I thought it was lazy on the writers' part, as evidenced by the fact that they admitted to toning him down for ease of conflict-writing and the fact that they were able to up his power and still tell good stories.
    You make solid points. Even if it wasn't done intentionally or planned that way I think it still works. Just like in the comic it wasn't originally planned that he would become more powerful, he just did as the stories demanded it to the point now that most fans expect him to be uber powerful even though wasn't originally designed that way. Also if you look back at the creation of the series they took a lot of inspiration from the fleicher series and even wanted to have it set in that time period originally.

  3. #33
    We'll Be Waiting For You godzilla2099's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but DCAU Superman's Role was a meatshield used to promote others. The DCAU Supergirl on the other hand was fun to watch.

    I grew up with George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, and the Super Friends. This was how Superman was supposed to be. The ultimate force for good. The hero that made villains crap themselves. When you compare DCAU Superman to these guys, its an embarrassment to watch.

    My biggest problems with him:

    - Beyond Depowered

    - He was a punching bag: Depowered is one thing, but this guy got his ass kicked on a daily basis. There are better ways to promote b/c listed heroes and villains than to have them beat up Superman. It resulted in dull and "wtf, this is just stupid' reactions. Hell, even Ubu, Ras Al Ghul's bitch beat the crap out of Superman.

    - A few fries short of a happy meal. I love Batman as much as Superman, but it was getting mega old seeing Batman save Superman's Bacon over and over again. Instead of the intelligent Superman I grew up with, DCAU was an oaf.
    Last edited by godzilla2099; 12-26-2012 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla2099 View Post
    I'm sorry, but DCAU Superman's Role was a meatshield used to promote others. The DCAU Supergirl on the other hand was fun to watch.

    I grew up with George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, and the Super Friends. This was how Superman was supposed to be. The ultimate force for good. The hero that made villains crap themselves. When you compare DCAU Superman to these guys, its an embarrassment to watch.

    My biggest problems with him:

    - Beyond Depowered

    - He was a punching bag: Depowered is one thing, but this guy got his ass kicked on a daily basis. There are better ways to promote b/c listed heroes and villains than to have them beat up Superman. It resulted in dull and "wtf, this is just stupid' reactions. Hell, even Ubu, Ras Al Ghul's bitch beat the crap out of Superman.

    - A few fries short of a happy meal. I love Batman as much as Superman, but it was getting mega old seeing Batman save Superman's Bacon over and over again. Instead of the intelligent Superman I grew up with, DCAU was an oaf.

    Then how to you rate the Fleischer cartoon or Superman's early comic adventures? He was around the same power level if not weaker.

  5. #35
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    Then how to you rate the Fleischer cartoon or Superman's early comic adventures? He was around the same power level if not weaker.
    He was definitively weaker. I mean, Fleisher Superman couldn't even fly at first.
    It was still the best cartoon of Superman. His portrayal as a silent badass worked surprisingly well, although the format is probably for something in that.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #36
    The Dark Knight Returns DonC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I also hated how Superman became in asshole in JLU to Captain Marvel.

    I don't recall Superman and Captain Marvel ever doing that.
    Free your soul and let it fly....

  7. #37
    We'll Be Waiting For You godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daybreak_st View Post
    Then how to you rate the Fleischer cartoon or Superman's early comic adventures? He was around the same power level if not weaker.
    Fleischer Superman? Iconic. Phenomenal

    However, this Superman was silent, but took action, and was a bad ass. He faced his challenges but kicked ass all over the place.

    As for the power levels, during those times, Superman was portrayed correctly. And yes, I see your point. Power levels don't mean everything, but it is nice to see Superman do something extraordinary. I mean, he is Superman.

    There was a passion to the Fleischer Superman that the DCAU lacked.

  8. #38
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    I've always believed that one line by Miller that summed up how Superman should be.

    "We must not remind them that giants walk the earth"
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  9. #39
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    It always seemed pretty obvious to me that Superman was seriously holding back most of the time in STAS. Like in his first fight with Kalibak, which seemed to be a stalemate until Supes finally decided to take the gloves off, at which point it was no contest. And most of the threats he had trouble with were things that would have given him trouble in the comics too, like electricity. That electricity can hurt him stayed long past his 90s and 2000s repowerings. He simply didn't cut loose, and was likely limiting his strength to a fraction of its true potential most of the time.

    The problem I had was when he seemed weaker than Wonder Woman in the first season of JL.

  10. #40
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Here's where I disagree with the idea that he was obviously holding back. If you look at some of the earlier season 2 episodes of Justice League, when the creators were in serious "Look, Superman isn't a wuss, honest!" mode, he might've been punched or zapped or whatever, and stunned for a moment, but then he'd gauge how powerful the enemy attack was and become more stout, and the next time around the attack wouldn't be quite as powerful. So in the first episode, "Twilight," Brainiac zaps him with a laser-like attack, and Superman, struggling just a little, would take the full impact but proceed moving forward. The same thing happens against Luthor in his battle armor in the following episode. Likewise, when Superman would take a punch in these earlier episodes, like against AMAZO who had Superman's strength along with powers from 4 other Justice Leaguers, he might go flying in the air, but watch that he doesn't clumsily crash into a wall. He gets his bearings and lands unharmed, ready to counterattack. Compare that to season 1, or STAS, and it was guaranteed Superman would grunt in pain and make a dent somewhere.

    Another example I'd point out is the three-part episode "World's Finest." When Superman and Batman are fighting the battle robots, Batman looks like a total expert, dodging blasts and jumping over these large robots to avoid fire. Superman does neither (who's the one who's faster than a speeding bullet and can jump over the tallest buildings in a single bound again?), and repeatedly gets pounded by laser fire, all the while grunting in pain. If those laser blasts are hurting Superman, then Superman should at least finally decide "ENOUGH!", dodge the next attack, and pound the war machine. Either that, or he should concentrate harder on resisting the blast and stand his ground better the next time.

    In short, they should've just written Superman's power level the way it was in season 2 of JL, and the movies that followed, in the first place. Instead, we get these weird scenarios such as when Superman couldn't slow down a War Wheel at all, whereas Green Lantern had the power to stop one its tracks until his ring had 0% charge remaining. Here are the gifs, since I already uploaded it months ago, also from season 1 of Justice League:




  11. #41
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Here's where I disagree with the idea that he was obviously holding back. If you look at some of the earlier season 2 episodes of Justice League, when the creators were in serious "Look, Superman isn't a wuss, honest!" mode, he might've been punched or zapped or whatever, and stunned for a moment, but then he'd gauge how powerful the enemy attack was and become more stout, and the next time around the attack wouldn't be quite as powerful. So in the first episode, "Twilight," Brainiac zaps him with a laser-like attack, and Superman, struggling just a little, would take the full impact but proceed moving forward. The same thing happens against Luthor in his battle armor in the following episode. Likewise, when Superman would take a punch in these earlier episodes, like against AMAZO who had Superman's strength along with powers from 4 other Justice Leaguers, he might go flying in the air, but watch that he doesn't clumsily crash into a wall. He gets his bearings and lands unharmed, ready to counterattack. Compare that to season 1, or STAS, and it was guaranteed Superman would grunt in pain and make a dent somewhere.

    Another example I'd point out is the three-part episode "World's Finest." When Superman and Batman are fighting the battle robots, Batman looks like a total expert, dodging blasts and jumping over these large robots to avoid fire. Superman does neither (who's the one who's faster than a speeding bullet and can jump over the tallest buildings in a single bound again?), and repeatedly gets pounded by laser fire, all the while grunting in pain. If those laser blasts are hurting Superman, then Superman should at least finally decide "ENOUGH!", dodge the next attack, and pound the war machine. Either that, or he should concentrate harder on resisting the blast and stand his ground better the next time.

    In short, they should've just written Superman's power level the way it was in season 2 of JL, and the movies that followed, in the first place. Instead, we get these weird scenarios such as when Superman couldn't slow down a War Wheel at all, whereas Green Lantern had the power to stop one its tracks until his ring had 0% charge remaining. Here are the gifs, since I already uploaded it months ago, also from season 1 of Justice League:




    I felt that Superman the Animated Series and JL season 1 were very much like Superman in the comics at the time, save Morrison JLA, but I always thought he was a punching bag. Fleisher's Superman never seemed like a sap, maybe it was all the grunting in pain that the animated Superman seemed cursed with.

    I thought JL the animated series was odd because Hawkgirl was the teams heavy hitter.

  12. #42
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    It's all Bruce Timm's fault

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    I've always believed that one line by Miller that summed up how Superman should be.

    "We must not remind them that giants walk the earth"
    Which is utter nonosense. Every time he flies over Metropolis he reminds everyone just that. Miller is just another hater willing to sacrifice Superman to the altar of the bat-god.

  14. #44
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    Which is utter nonosense. Every time he flies over Metropolis he reminds everyone just that. Miller is just another hater willing to sacrifice Superman to the altar of the bat-god.
    That's kinda what I meant, didn't express myself well enough. He is a GOD. And he should act like it. But then he'd be boring.

    What threats are there to stop a GOD? A giant Christopher Hitchens robot?
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    He was badly underpowered..I used to call him Kinda Powerful Man.
    Okay, but if Superman is at his Silver Age power level, where he is juggling planets and blowing galaxies by sneezing, how are the villains supposed to present believable threat?

    It seems like the two episodes with Toyman would be out, because Toyman's devices would have no effect no Silver Age superman, the episode with Livewire would be out, because Silver Age Superman would not be affect by her powers, heck most of the episodes with just normal criminals would be out, because Silver age Superman can handle normal criminals in a second. Heck even the pilot would have been way shorter, because Silver Age Superman could have defeated John Corben in that armored suit in 6 seconds, leaving that story with no real climax. So if you make Superman too powerful, you limit what stories you can do and what kind of threats you use.

    Also Golden age Superman was not that powerful, so there is a precedent for a Superman who can't juggle planets.

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