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  1. #196
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40yearoldnovafan View Post
    True dat! As I said, earlier, if Logan was "dead" and they made some young kid the new Wolverine (as in the Ultimate Universe) people would up in arms, cursing, spitting, protesting.
    It seems no different than what is currently going on in Spider-Man, yet that book will continue to sell the same 60,000 issues a month.

    The point here isn't that nobody "cares" about Richard Rider fans, it's that Marvel is trying to make a Nova book that will sell. If this one fails miserably then so be it, but they already know that a quality Richard Rider book won't do any better.

  2. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    It seems no different than what is currently going on in Spider-Man, yet that book will continue to sell the same 60,000 issues a month.

    The point here isn't that nobody "cares" about Richard Rider fans, it's that Marvel is trying to make a Nova book that will sell. If this one fails miserably then so be it, but they already know that a quality Richard Rider book won't do any better.
    I would very much argue that Marvel themselves has no one to blame for Nova's sales other than themselves. Even then, the sales were pretty stable and decent for a book not starring one of their "big" names.

    But, let's be honest here... Marvel dropped the ball on marketing the title. They did it for the whole "Annihilation" and "Guardians of the Galaxy" stories and tie-ins too. As a casual comic book reader, they threw all their marketing muscle behind Civil War, big Spider-man changes (and retcons), big stunts like killing off Captain America and making a new one, and they were riding the wave of popularity brought on by Iron Man's breakthrough movie which supercharged the Marvel cinematic universe and the lingering success of the X-men and Spider-man franchises. I barely heard a peep during those days of what was going on with Marvel's cosmic universe in "Annihilation". In fact, I missed out on it entirely at first simply because I didn't even know it was going on (or that my favorite character was involved). It was only months after it resolved that I heard a group of small, passion fans talking about how the cosmic universe was thriving again due to stellar writing and great characters and I saw a glimpse of Nova on one of the covers and gave the trade collections a look... and never turned back.

    "Annihilation" was the best thing Marvel did in the past 10 years. It was, well, "classic" Marvel; stories of heroes stepping up to fight great evil and save the universe. They were inspiring, thrilling, daring, original, imaginative... they were the types of stories the Marvel of old told that sucked people into reading in the first place, divorced from the debacles of petty party politics, gritty "realism", a post-Watchmen look at superhero morality and cynicism... Cosmic Marvel had its dark and violent moments too, but it packed with it a sense of wonder, heroism, passion, and imagination sorely lacking in the core books. Here were true heroes fighting true evil, and, my God, it felt good to see heroes acting like HEROES. It's been far too long since I could just read a story about that, without any moral gray areas or stomach-churning brutality and nihilistic views and behavior from my once-respected heroes. I'm both sad almost the entire Marvel universe, for years, was so UN-heroic, yet Cosmic Marvel, and especially Nova, were there to make me keep believing in the good of heroes.

    But, and this is the reality of things, Marvel knew that pulling stunts, regardless of quality, regardless of good characterization, would drive sells up. Thus Marvel put all their efforts behind mega-events like Civil War, One More Day, AvX, Secret Invasion, and what feels like a dozen other stunts of diminishing quality. I barely heard a peep from Marvel about Annihilation, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos Imperative, and plenty of other books fell by the wayside simply because the books didn't factor into some earth-based conflict or involve popular names like "Spider-Man", "Wolverine", or "Iron Man".

    I'd bet my savings that if Marvel cast as much of a limelight on a quality book like "Nova" during its run, you'd be seeing an overwhelming demand for more of him and higher sales. I'm sure there are exceptions, but almost everyone I've ever spoken to that read Nova during his run in "Annihilation", his self-titled book, and his involvement with the Guardians and "Thanos Imperative" has walked away utterly impressed by the sheer fun and quality of the title. The readers saw it, Nova fans DEFINITELY saw it, the writers of Nova saw it... everyone except for Marvel themselves, who were too busy figuring out how to make their heroes beat the crap out of each other (again) to give it the push it deserved.

  3. #198
    Senior Member Rimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I would very much argue that Marvel themselves has no one to blame for Nova's sales other than themselves. Even then, the sales were pretty stable and decent for a book not starring one of their "big" names.

    But, let's be honest here... Marvel dropped the ball on marketing the title. They did it for the whole "Annihilation" and "Guardians of the Galaxy" stories and tie-ins too. As a casual comic book reader, they threw all their marketing muscle behind Civil War, big Spider-man changes (and retcons), big stunts like killing off Captain America and making a new one, and they were riding the wave of popularity brought on by Iron Man's breakthrough movie which supercharged the Marvel cinematic universe and the lingering success of the X-men and Spider-man franchises. I barely heard a peep during those days of what was going on with Marvel's cosmic universe in "Annihilation". In fact, I missed out on it entirely at first simply because I didn't even know it was going on (or that my favorite character was involved). It was only months after it resolved that I heard a group of small, passion fans talking about how the cosmic universe was thriving again due to stellar writing and great characters and I saw a glimpse of Nova on one of the covers and gave the trade collections a look... and never turned back.

    "Annihilation" was the best thing Marvel did in the past 10 years. It was, well, "classic" Marvel; stories of heroes stepping up to fight great evil and save the universe. They were inspiring, thrilling, daring, original, imaginative... they were the types of stories the Marvel of old told that sucked people into reading in the first place, divorced from the debacles of petty party politics, gritty "realism", a post-Watchmen look at superhero morality and cynicism... Cosmic Marvel had its dark and violent moments too, but it packed with it a sense of wonder, heroism, passion, and imagination sorely lacking in the core books. Here were true heroes fighting true evil, and, my God, it felt good to see heroes acting like HEROES. It's been far too long since I could just read a story about that, without any moral gray areas or stomach-churning brutality and nihilistic views and behavior from my once-respected heroes. I'm both sad almost the entire Marvel universe, for years, was so UN-heroic, yet Cosmic Marvel, and especially Nova, were there to make me keep believing in the good of heroes.

    But, and this is the reality of things, Marvel knew that pulling stunts, regardless of quality, regardless of good characterization, would drive sells up. Thus Marvel put all their efforts behind mega-events like Civil War, One More Day, AvX, Secret Invasion, and what feels like a dozen other stunts of diminishing quality. I barely heard a peep from Marvel about Annihilation, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos Imperative, and plenty of other books fell by the wayside simply because the books didn't factor into some earth-based conflict or involve popular names like "Spider-Man", "Wolverine", or "Iron Man".

    I'd bet my savings that if Marvel cast as much of a limelight on a quality book like "Nova" during its run, you'd be seeing an overwhelming demand for more of him and higher sales. I'm sure there are exceptions, but almost everyone I've ever spoken to that read Nova during his run in "Annihilation", his self-titled book, and his involvement with the Guardians and "Thanos Imperative" has walked away utterly impressed by the sheer fun and quality of the title. The readers saw it, Nova fans DEFINITELY saw it, the writers of Nova saw it... everyone except for Marvel themselves, who were too busy figuring out how to make their heroes beat the crap out of each other (again) to give it the push it deserved.
    Agreed. And now, to keep the new GotG from flopping (supposedly) they have added Iron Man to the group. Joy joy.
    "No job is worth your integrity" - Herm Edwards

  4. #199
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I would very much argue that Marvel themselves has no one to blame for Nova's sales other than themselves. Even then, the sales were pretty stable and decent for a book not starring one of their "big" names.
    Yeah, I agree with this mostly.

    I do think the secondary & tertiary titles really suffered during that period as Marvel was extremely Event-heavy and reduced everything else to the back-burner. So I do think that criticism is fair, that if they would bring Richard Rider back as part of Marvel Now! it would stand a chance to compete with the Daredevils & Captain Marvels of the line. However, I also think it's fair if they wanted to pursue a different avenue, either because it aligns with the TV show, or because Loeb is a recognizable name and wanted to tell this story instead.

    I get that I'm not personally attached to Nova the way most of you are, but I think a broader perspective indicates that this genuinely isn't a slight on Rider, just simply going a different route.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    It seems no different than what is currently going on in Spider-Man, yet that book will continue to sell the same 60,000 issues a month.

    The point here isn't that nobody "cares" about Richard Rider fans, it's that Marvel is trying to make a Nova book that will sell. If this one fails miserably then so be it, but they already know that a quality Richard Rider book won't do any better.

    I agree with Garlador's rebuttal to Kylun's straw man argument.

    This is entirely different. Nobody thinks the A-list characters are going to stay dead or gone. When Peter, Steve, Tony, Thor, Bruce, Logan, et al take a break and somebody else steps in - we all know it's a temporary place filler and Peter, Steve, Tony, et al will be back in a year or less. How many times have we seen this? In my 30+ years of comics reading - plenty of times.

    Not necessarily so with B or C listers. How long was Johnny Blaze back benched? Rich himself was gone for more than a decade after Volume I. Miles Morales is the new Spiderman in the Ultimate Universe and I don't think Ultimate Parker will be coming back. Face it, this is a Miles Morales treatment of Nova. It's pretty clear that "Nova" is being Loebotomized and Wackerized for NINO to be the new status quo for a very long time. Rich may eventually return, but it's not going to be anytime soon like Peter Parker's return is assured of being. Our only hope is for NINO to fail miserably and for Rich to have a cameo in the GotG movie. Then maybe we'll see Rich back sooner.

    And I, like Garlador, can't help but wonder that if Marvel had given as much love, promotion, and attention to DnA's take on Nova and GotG as they're giving to their golden boys Loeb and Bendis; would we still be enjoying Nova Volume IV and DnA's GotG? I think we would. Marvel did about as good a job marketing DnA's Nova and GotG as Disney did marketing John Carter. Nova/GotG were great and John Carter wasn't bad. They both just flew under potential customers' radar due to bad marketing.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Yeah, I agree with this mostly.

    I do think the secondary & tertiary titles really suffered during that period as Marvel was extremely Event-heavy and reduced everything else to the back-burner. So I do think that criticism is fair, that if they would bring Richard Rider back as part of Marvel Now! it would stand a chance to compete with the Daredevils & Captain Marvels of the line. However, I also think it's fair if they wanted to pursue a different avenue, either because it aligns with the TV show, or because Loeb is a recognizable name and wanted to tell this story instead.

    I get that I'm not personally attached to Nova the way most of you are, but I think a broader perspective indicates that this genuinely isn't a slight on Rider, just simply going a different route.

    Rider is a fictional character. He doesn't have feelings so he can't be slighted.

    So "going a different route" (i.e. hijacking the concepts) is somehow not a slight to DnA or the uber-fans of Rich Rider? I beg to differ. DnA/Giffen respected the concepts that came before, respectfully tweaked them to emphasize what really worked for the character, and came up with a superior product - a mature, powerful, leader of men capable of taking on Annihilus, Silver Surfer, et al single-handedly. In contrast, the Loebotomized NINO is given a magic helmet and then has to ask his mother's permission to join the Avengers after school? Threatens to tattle-tell the Avengers on Diamondhead? Gets his ass handed to him by Terrax and just about every villain on USM? Really? That's not a slight to the concepts and the fans of the concepts?

    Sad thing is that when NINO fails - Alonso, Brevoort, et al will conclude that "Nova" can't sell rather than the correct conclusion that they gave poor marketing support to Volume IV and that many fans of the concepts were completely turned off by NINO.

  7. #202
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    This is entirely different. Nobody thinks the A-list characters are going to stay dead or gone.
    Fine, I'll grant you that you have good reason to be upset since it's going to be a long time that you see Richard Rider again. I appreciate that frustration.

    And I guess if there was no new Nova book then you would hope that Richard Rider would return in GotG or something. I think there's still plenty of room for a Richard Rider return, especially if the new Nova is successful. And it would probably be a more sustainable return if Nova sells well.

    (Also, what does NINO stand for?)

    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    And I, like Garlador, can't help but wonder that if Marvel had given as much love, promotion, and attention to DnA's take on Nova and GotG as they're giving to their golden boys Loeb and Bendis; would we still be enjoying Nova Volume IV and DnA's GotG? I think we would. Marvel did about as good a job marketing DnA's Nova and GotG as Disney did marketing John Carter. Nova/GotG were great and John Carter wasn't bad. They both just flew under potential customers' radar due to bad marketing.
    How could it? Before Marvel NOW, none of their B-List or C-List characters could sustain prolonged runs, even with A-list talent on the titles.

  8. #203
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    So "going a different route" (i.e. hijacking the concepts) is somehow not a slight to DnA or the uber-fans of Rich Rider?
    Semantics. It's no different than any relaunch or reboot ever. It sucks when it's your favorite character at the end of it, but it isn't personal.

  9. #204
    No Reservations Cthulhudrew's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, I'm reading a lot of comments referring to Rich as being dead. Has this ever actually been stated by Loeb or any of the creators on the "new" Nova title, that they consider Rich to be dead? Because I haven't seen anything like that in any of the (admittedly few) interviews I've read about the book.

    I'm not a fan of the new Nova myself, both because I haven't liked pretty much anything I've ever read of Loeb's (I did kind of like Hush, although I understand the criticisms of it), and because I think the "Geegoshwillikershucks!" "kid" Nova concept is the worst idea since Lucas' Anakin "whiz kid" Skywalker, but I don't for a second believe that Richard Rider will stay permanently gone from the MU for any real length of time. This is a character who disappeared for almost 20 years before being revived to arguably even greater heights of fame over a subsequent 20 year period. The original bucket head will be back, sooner or later, and I think fears to the contrary are probably misplaced.

  10. #205
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    NINO stands for "Nova In Name Only" and is a term used to derisively refer to Sam Alexander.

    I don't think it's personally directed at me as Marvel has no idea who I am and could care less. I do think that it's a slight to the fans in general and the concepts - basically implying that what came before wasn't good and we therefore need to do the opposite of everything that came before - and just hijack the name and uniform.

    I think if NINO sells well - Rich will be Bucky dead (i.e., dead for DECADES if not forever like many of the heroes from the 40's and 50's) and it makes his return nearly impossible.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhudrew View Post
    Out of curiosity, I'm reading a lot of comments referring to Rich as being dead. Has this ever actually been stated by Loeb or any of the creators on the "new" Nova title, that they consider Rich to be dead? Because I haven't seen anything like that in any of the (admittedly few) interviews I've read about the book.

    I'm not a fan of the new Nova myself, both because I haven't liked pretty much anything I've ever read of Loeb's (I did kind of like Hush, although I understand the criticisms of it), and because I think the "Geegoshwillikershucks!" "kid" Nova concept is the worst idea since Lucas' Anakin "whiz kid" Skywalker, but I don't for a second believe that Richard Rider will stay permanently gone from the MU for any real length of time. This is a character who disappeared for almost 20 years before being revived to arguably even greater heights of fame over a subsequent 20 year period. The original bucket head will be back, sooner or later, and I think fears to the contrary are probably misplaced.
    Yes - Loeb, Brevoort, et al have made it clear that they consider Rich dead and gone; and make a great show of "respecting" Rich's death as the excuse for hijacking the concepts for Loeb to use.

    In contrast, DnA considered Rich MAROONED in the Cancerverse after the events of Thanos Imperative. Go to the fan website, novaprimepage, to read a transcript of a live conversation with DnA right after the events of TI. It's clear that they always intended on bringing Rich back had they been given the opportunity to continue their run.

    Loeb, Brevoort, et al just use "respect" for Rich's "death" as an excuse to justify NINO. They don't seem to be so respectful of any A-lister's death though. Steve Rogers didn't stay dead long. The 616 Peter Parker won't either.

  12. #207
    No Reservations Cthulhudrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    Yes - Loeb, Brevoort, et al have made it clear that they consider Rich dead and gone; and make a great show of "respecting" Rich's death as the excuse for hijacking the concepts for Loeb to use.
    Have they stated that explicitly, though? Or is that just hyperbole? I'm not trying to be antagonistic- I'm just very curious if there are any interviews that I haven't seen where any of the above have stated outright that Nova is dead. (Again, not that it really matters; dead in comics doesn't really mean dead, we all know that.)

    Anyone have any links to some quotes on the matter?

  13. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhudrew View Post
    Have they stated that explicitly, though? Or is that just hyperbole? I'm not trying to be antagonistic- I'm just very curious if there are any interviews that I haven't seen where any of the above have stated outright that Nova is dead. (Again, not that it really matters; dead in comics doesn't really mean dead, we all know that.)

    Anyone have any links to some quotes on the matter?
    The only thing I can really find is this: http://www.previewsworld.com/Home/1/...ticleID=129200

    Chiefly, "Ed McGuinness and I love Nova. Huge fans. And when Abnett and Lanning made the bold decision to bring Rich Rider's story to an end (as well as the Nova Corp) we thought that story was epic and heartbreaking but NOVA had to live on!"

    It's been stated within the comics themselves that Richard Rider is supposed to be dead, but, well, comics being what they are, we won't know until we see a body.

    My favorite DC hero for years was Azrael, and they teased his return for years after his supposed "death"... only to just give up and say "yeah, he's dead" and put him as a corpse in Blackest Night.

    So I'm both skeptical he's dead (or rather, Richard Rider has survived FAR worse) but I'm also not sure if the people Marvel put on the book know this or care (they've already confused the Nova powers as being something that comes from the Helmet, like a Green Lantern ring or Thor's hammer... which isn't accurate at all.)

  14. #209
    Senior Member 40yearoldnovafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhudrew View Post
    Out of curiosity, I'm reading a lot of comments referring to Rich as being dead. Has this ever actually been stated by Loeb or any of the creators on the "new" Nova title, that they consider Rich to be dead? Because I haven't seen anything like that in any of the (admittedly few) interviews I've read about the book.

    I'm not a fan of the new Nova myself, both because I haven't liked pretty much anything I've ever read of Loeb's (I did kind of like Hush, although I understand the criticisms of it), and because I think the "Geegoshwillikershucks!" "kid" Nova concept is the worst idea since Lucas' Anakin "whiz kid" Skywalker, but I don't for a second believe that Richard Rider will stay permanently gone from the MU for any real length of time. This is a character who disappeared for almost 20 years before being revived to arguably even greater heights of fame over a subsequent 20 year period. The original bucket head will be back, sooner or later, and I think fears to the contrary are probably misplaced.
    1. A lot of us long time Nova fans are in our late 40s (if not older). I do not want to wait another ten to twenty years for Rich to return. Heck, I may not be around.
    2. I believe I have seen in several articles that they consider Rich to be dead. So Loeb is respecting that heart-breaking ending to Thanos Imperative.

    In Avengers Assemble, which co-starred the Guardians of the Galaxy, an Avenger asked Star-lord how he escaped the Cancer-verse, and Star-lord did not Answer. He just had a "don't ask me that question" look on his face.

  15. #210
    Senior Member 40yearoldnovafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I would very much argue that Marvel themselves has no one to blame for Nova's sales other than themselves. Even then, the sales were pretty stable and decent for a book not starring one of their "big" names.

    But, let's be honest here... Marvel dropped the ball on marketing the title. They did it for the whole "Annihilation" and "Guardians of the Galaxy" stories and tie-ins too. As a casual comic book reader, they threw all their marketing muscle behind Civil War, big Spider-man changes (and retcons), big stunts like killing off Captain America and making a new one, and they were riding the wave of popularity brought on by Iron Man's breakthrough movie which supercharged the Marvel cinematic universe and the lingering success of the X-men and Spider-man franchises. I barely heard a peep during those days of what was going on with Marvel's cosmic universe in "Annihilation". In fact, I missed out on it entirely at first simply because I didn't even know it was going on (or that my favorite character was involved). It was only months after it resolved that I heard a group of small, passion fans talking about how the cosmic universe was thriving again due to stellar writing and great characters and I saw a glimpse of Nova on one of the covers and gave the trade collections a look... and never turned back.

    "Annihilation" was the best thing Marvel did in the past 10 years. It was, well, "classic" Marvel; stories of heroes stepping up to fight great evil and save the universe. They were inspiring, thrilling, daring, original, imaginative... they were the types of stories the Marvel of old told that sucked people into reading in the first place, divorced from the debacles of petty party politics, gritty "realism", a post-Watchmen look at superhero morality and cynicism... Cosmic Marvel had its dark and violent moments too, but it packed with it a sense of wonder, heroism, passion, and imagination sorely lacking in the core books. Here were true heroes fighting true evil, and, my God, it felt good to see heroes acting like HEROES. It's been far too long since I could just read a story about that, without any moral gray areas or stomach-churning brutality and nihilistic views and behavior from my once-respected heroes. I'm both sad almost the entire Marvel universe, for years, was so UN-heroic, yet Cosmic Marvel, and especially Nova, were there to make me keep believing in the good of heroes.

    But, and this is the reality of things, Marvel knew that pulling stunts, regardless of quality, regardless of good characterization, would drive sells up. Thus Marvel put all their efforts behind mega-events like Civil War, One More Day, AvX, Secret Invasion, and what feels like a dozen other stunts of diminishing quality. I barely heard a peep from Marvel about Annihilation, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos Imperative, and plenty of other books fell by the wayside simply because the books didn't factor into some earth-based conflict or involve popular names like "Spider-Man", "Wolverine", or "Iron Man".

    I'd bet my savings that if Marvel cast as much of a limelight on a quality book like "Nova" during its run, you'd be seeing an overwhelming demand for more of him and higher sales. I'm sure there are exceptions, but almost everyone I've ever spoken to that read Nova during his run in "Annihilation", his self-titled book, and his involvement with the Guardians and "Thanos Imperative" has walked away utterly impressed by the sheer fun and quality of the title. The readers saw it, Nova fans DEFINITELY saw it, the writers of Nova saw it... everyone except for Marvel themselves, who were too busy figuring out how to make their heroes beat the crap out of each other (again) to give it the push it deserved.
    DnA was even to blame for a lack of Nova marketing (sad to say). They kept Rich out of War of Kings and their other post Annihilation minis, until the last issue. At one point, they even removed Rich's powers. Marvel screwed up with Nova when the Skrulls came to Earth and attacked the Avengers. Nova protects all the other alien races when they are attacked, but did not do much when the Skrulls came to his home planet? Rich should have been peppered throughout that event. But it was Bendis driven.

    And, as you said, Rich was HEROIC, when all the other heroes were being stupid fighting others. Rich was one of those guys that enemies respected and served under. I loved how he even said "sir", "yes ma'am" and other respectful terms. Even how he dealt with Blastaar was great, and respectful - teaching him how he needed to act to be seen as a respected leader.

    Rich was respectful. I loved it.

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