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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkaman Blade View Post
    I'll just state that I am not a Nova fan so no big attachments to the character, but I have read a decent portion of his 90's New Warriors material plus his more recent appearances in New Warriors by Wells & Young, and all the main Annihilation stories up thru to the Thanos Imperative by Abnett & Lanning. I have liked some of the past combined work from Loeb & McGuinness so I may purchase Nova in hardcover if it ties heavily into Guardians of the Galaxy.

    Just by glancing over a few long past covers since I have never read this material and and am well aware that cover headlines and character depictions can sometimes not relate to what's inside the comic book (#4, #17, #18 of the 1994 ongoing respectively) is it really all that out of the ordinary or shocking for a new Nova to surface or to even challenge for the mantle thereby shaking things up in the status quo?

    *snip images for space*

    Side note: Digging the rocket-mullet.
    None of those were complete replacements of Rich as a character. This "new" Nova is intnded (as I understand it) to be Nova going forward on a permanent basis (or at least until Marketing tells Editorial that Nova is "stale" again).

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDemon View Post
    None of those were complete replacements of Rich as a character. This "new" Nova is intnded (as I understand it) to be Nova going forward on a permanent basis (or at least until Marketing tells Editorial that Nova is "stale" again).
    I think at best NINO is aimed at ShadowDemon and others who aren't fans of Nova or who were casual readers of Nova and "have no big attachment to the character" as ShadowDemon said. Alonso himself said he "had no doubt" that long term Nova fans would embrace NINO. I personally have a lot of doubt that long term fans will embrace NINO - but it's obvious that NINO isn't aimed at long term fans. It's mostly aimed at kiddies who like the USM cartoon.

    NINO is Wacker/Loeb's regressive attempt to capture the magic of teenage Peter Parker once again rather than take the Nova concept in a new direction as did DnA with their version of Nova and GotG.

    They hope that the warmed-over/re-treaded teenage Spidermanish riff will appeal to general comics buyers who just can't seem to get enough of that; and perhaps to kiddies who like the cartoon. Who knows? Maybe they're right. This isn't cosmic though. It's pseudo-cosmic at best.

    If you want cosmic, spend your money on DC Cosmic and the Indie cosmic comics. They actually respect their customers and their editors have more to offer the fans than insults and antagonism.

  3. #168
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    It's mostly aimed at kiddies who like the USM cartoon.
    Since when is appealing to a new generation of readers a bad thing?

    And it's not like they killed off Richard Rider so that they could introduce this new character (though I may have heard it intimated that that's exactly what they did, it seemed to be pretty unsubstantiated speculation).

    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    NINO is Wacker/Loeb's regressive attempt to capture the magic of teenage Peter Parker ...
    Which worked well enough for the original Nova . . .

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Since when is appealing to a new generation of readers a bad thing?

    And it's not like they killed off Richard Rider so that they could introduce this new character (though I may have heard it intimated that that's exactly what they did, it seemed to be pretty unsubstantiated speculation).



    Which worked well enough for the original Nova . . .
    Which DIDN'T work all that well for the original Nova. Cancelled in 2 years and not heard from again for 10 years.

    I think what appealed to the long term fans was the cosmic potential of Nova glimpsed in a few of the Volume I issues - especially in the final story arc on Xandar. And in a personal communication to me from Marv Wolfman himself - he said that had the series not been cancelled he was going to move the character into more space-based storylines. Also -notably, the Starlost Saga was one of the most popular cosmic themed Nova stories of the 90's. Again - the space-based themes appealed to the fans of the character much more than the street level Spidermanish themes. Nova really came into his own with Volume IV - a radical departure from the Peter Parker-ish conceptualization of the 70's and 90's. Fans embraced the tough, powerful, leader of men conceptualization and the space-based storylines. Setting aside the burying of Rider issue to make way for Loeb's tribute character - NINO feels like a regression to what didn't work so well before. If you want Spiderman, read Spiderman. Why read someone else trying to act like Spiderman?

    And appealing to a new generation isn't a bad thing per se. Just don't bury an established character with an established fan base whose new direction in Vol IV was wholeheartedly embraced; and hijack the concepts to try to re-create what didn't work all that well in 1976 with a new un-appealing character - and then per Alonso act puzzled as to why the long term fans don't like the idea.

    Maybe you haven't been a fan of the character since 1976. Maybe you're not that invested. So maybe it's easier for you to take the "Devil's Advocate" position. Fine. But the reaction of the long term fans is hardly unprecedented. The Quasar fans were none too happy when he was replaced by Phyla; and they advocated until he came back. The GL fans didn't bond with Kyle and kept at it until Hal returned. Expect the same from the Rider fans.

  5. #170
    Senior Member 40yearoldnovafan's Avatar
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    I recently watched an episode of "Ultimate Spiderman." I thought it was cool to see "Nova" but even though I knew it was coming, his introduction as Sam Alexander bummed me out. And boy, they were all childish. Even Powerman was a kid - which was not the case in the comic - ever. This seems like throwing a bone to Disney and children to me.

    After "Brand New Day", I stopped reading Spiderman. Not just because Marvel got rid of the marriage, but because they really took the character back to stories I felt I had read before. Peter was back at Aunt May's house. Peter could no longer afford to live on his own. Peter was having girlfriend problems. Peter couldn't keep a good paying job. Been there, done that. I don't want that any more. I have picked up a Spiderman now and again, but it just was not fun for me anymore.

    I will say this about the new Nova - at least they are not regressing Rich and acting like Annihilation did not happen.

    But it does seem they are going to tell a similar story to early Rich, just using Sam Alexander instead - average kid gets power he does not know how to use, receives no training, gets beat up a lot, possibly will have family issues.

    Do we know how old Sam is, because he looks about thirteen. Rich was about seventeen, and physically "muscled up" when he became Nova. He did not have spaghetti arms, a big head, and a ten year old girls body. I'm not trying to be harsh, that's just how he looks to me.

  6. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    Which DIDN'T work all that well for the original Nova.
    Yeah, I remember the original response as well. Richard Rider stories that were "street level Peter Parker-esque" stories never resonated with the fans, and certainly not with me. But once Richard Rider was blasting off into cosmic stories, I was glued to everything that happened. "Nova" never did well as a riff on Peter Park, mainly because we already HAD Peter Parker stories. "Nova" was at its best when Richard Rider was NOT following the predictable path of Peter Parker's character evolution, mainly because *shock and awe!* Richard Rider was NOT Peter Parker and he didn't have to try and be the next Peter Parker.

    When Richard Rider was forging his own identity as his own unique self, that's where "Nova" excelled, and Richard was a character that just felt like he belonged in space. There's a reason I praised heaven above when Nova came back from "Annihilation", saw all the crap going on in Civil War, and told the earth heroes to screw off, flew into space, and decided to just ignore earth problems since an entire galaxy needed him more. That was where he belonged. That was where the story belonged. It was something fresh and different and much appreciated.

    It's bone-headed decisions to replace already young characters with newer "hipster" teenagers (written with eye-rolling penmanship of middle-aged adult men who have no clue what kids actually like while) that helped push me to stop reading comics. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the fact Marvel created an entire alternate universe (Ultimate Marvel) for that VERY reason? So creators could avoid mucking around with beloved, popular, well-liked characters without fear of backlash since these would be alternate stories in an alternate universe? Where Nick Fury could be Samuel L. Jackson, Spider-man could be someone other than Peter Parker, and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver could engage in icky incestuous acts? I mean, as a fan of all of the above, I'd be mortified at these changes, but as alternate universe tales I can stomach them.

    So, why didn't Marvel decide to make this Sam Alexander kid the "Ultimate Marvel" Nova and just let Richard Rider fans keep the character they've embraced for the last several decades? If they genuinely believed Nova fans would embrace some new immature kid taking on the role, I think they've got a very big disconnect between what they think fans want and what they actual want.

    I've almost never seen a popular character "replaced" that ever truly worked, even the ones I preferred changes to. At the end of the day, everyone ALWAYS prefers the original heroes they grew up loving. No matter how much I thought Kyle Raynor was a good Green Lantern, he's no Hal. No matter how much I liked Dick Grayson putting his spin on Batman, he's no Bruce. No matter how much I liked Bucky as Captain America, Steve Rogers is the better man for the job. No matter how much I prefer Wally West, we've got Barry Allen back and Wally's gone without any signs he's coming back. Johnny Blaze is going to remain the better Ghost Rider. I can't think of any real "replacement" that ever lasted or that fans fully ever embraced. In nearly 80 years, it has never really worked...

    ... So why do they keep trying? I'm certainly not thrilled that my favorite comic book character is out of action and someone else has jumped in to take his title. To me, that just tells me I can stop reading about my favorite hero until I hear word that he's come back... if he comes back. But as a Nova fan of the past several decades, I can say I'm officially not interested in the upcoming Nova title.

    It's cliche, but, well, the guys in charge just "don't get it"; or, more appropriately, they don't "get" Nova readers.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    Yeah, I remember the original response as well. Richard Rider stories that were "street level Peter Parker-esque" stories never resonated with the fans, and certainly not with me. But once Richard Rider was blasting off into cosmic stories, I was glued to everything that happened. "Nova" never did well as a riff on Peter Park, mainly because we already HAD Peter Parker stories. "Nova" was at its best when Richard Rider was NOT following the predictable path of Peter Parker's character evolution, mainly because *shock and awe!* Richard Rider was NOT Peter Parker and he didn't have to try and be the next Peter Parker.

    When Richard Rider was forging his own identity as his own unique self, that's where "Nova" excelled, and Richard was a character that just felt like he belonged in space. There's a reason I praised heaven above when Nova came back from "Annihilation", saw all the crap going on in Civil War, and told the earth heroes to screw off, flew into space, and decided to just ignore earth problems since an entire galaxy needed him more. That was where he belonged. That was where the story belonged. It was something fresh and different and much appreciated.

    It's bone-headed decisions to replace already young characters with newer "hipster" teenagers (written with eye-rolling penmanship of middle-aged adult men who have no clue what kids actually like while) that helped push me to stop reading comics. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the fact Marvel created an entire alternate universe (Ultimate Marvel) for that VERY reason? So creators could avoid mucking around with beloved, popular, well-liked characters without fear of backlash since these would be alternate stories in an alternate universe? Where Nick Fury could be Samuel L. Jackson, Spider-man could be someone other than Peter Parker, and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver could engage in icky incestuous acts? I mean, as a fan of all of the above, I'd be mortified at these changes, but as alternate universe tales I can stomach them.

    So, why didn't Marvel decide to make this Sam Alexander kid the "Ultimate Marvel" Nova and just let Richard Rider fans keep the character they've embraced for the last several decades? If they genuinely believed Nova fans would embrace some new immature kid taking on the role, I think they've got a very big disconnect between what they think fans want and what they actual want.

    I've almost never seen a popular character "replaced" that ever truly worked, even the ones I preferred changes to. At the end of the day, everyone ALWAYS prefers the original heroes they grew up loving. No matter how much I thought Kyle Raynor was a good Green Lantern, he's no Hal. No matter how much I liked Dick Grayson putting his spin on Batman, he's no Bruce. No matter how much I liked Bucky as Captain America, Steve Rogers is the better man for the job. No matter how much I prefer Wally West, we've got Barry Allen back and Wally's gone without any signs he's coming back. Johnny Blaze is going to remain the better Ghost Rider. I can't think of any real "replacement" that ever lasted or that fans fully ever embraced. In nearly 80 years, it has never really worked...

    ... So why do they keep trying? I'm certainly not thrilled that my favorite comic book character is out of action and someone else has jumped in to take his title. To me, that just tells me I can stop reading about my favorite hero until I hear word that he's come back... if he comes back. But as a Nova fan of the past several decades, I can say I'm officially not interested in the upcoming Nova title.

    It's cliche, but, well, the guys in charge just "don't get it"; or, more appropriately, they don't "get" Nova readers.
    What he said.

    And you're right. I wouldn't be complaining if they had made NINO an Ultimate Universe title. I wouldn't buy it; but I wouldn't complain either. I had no problem with the MC2 version of Nova (which I did buy and enjoy) which was much more like a more mature version of the 1976 Rider Nova than the Annihilation Nova. Still vastly prefer the Annihilation era Rich Rider; but I could enjoy a walk down memory lane too. The attempt to re-create Peter Parker didn't work well in 1976 and Wolfman was in the process of abandoning that line and moving Rich into space based storylines and a different characterization when Volume I was cancelled. I guess Marvel is still stuck trying to make the Nova concepts into a pseudo-cosmic street level version of Spiderman. Maybe Wacker and Loeb should've done better research and even consulted Marv Wolfman before embarking on the ill-conceived NINO; or just dumped NINO into the Ultimate Universe where he belongs.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by stingerman View Post
    Guarantee I won't.

    Haven't bought a Marvel issue since Bendis' first AvX Avengers tie-in.

    And regarding the above poster that doesn't believe what I previously posted - inside info was given to me from an internal Marvel memo. Loeb taking over Marvel Cosmic was leaked here on the CBR boards as well.

    Maybe Marvel thought in 2 years we would forget about the DnA stuff.

    Guess again.

    Yes because random internet guy "stingerman" is special enough to get inside info from Marvel. Jeez.
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  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40yearoldnovafan View Post
    I recently watched an episode of "Ultimate Spiderman." I thought it was cool to see "Nova" but even though I knew it was coming, his introduction as Sam Alexander bummed me out. And boy, they were all childish. Even Powerman was a kid - which was not the case in the comic - ever. This seems like throwing a bone to Disney and children to me.

    After "Brand New Day", I stopped reading Spiderman. Not just because Marvel got rid of the marriage, but because they really took the character back to stories I felt I had read before. Peter was back at Aunt May's house. Peter could no longer afford to live on his own. Peter was having girlfriend problems. Peter couldn't keep a good paying job. Been there, done that. I don't want that any more. I have picked up a Spiderman now and again, but it just was not fun for me anymore.

    I will say this about the new Nova - at least they are not regressing Rich and acting like Annihilation did not happen.

    But it does seem they are going to tell a similar story to early Rich, just using Sam Alexander instead - average kid gets power he does not know how to use, receives no training, gets beat up a lot, possibly will have family issues.

    Do we know how old Sam is, because he looks about thirteen. Rich was about seventeen, and physically "muscled up" when he became Nova. He did not have spaghetti arms, a big head, and a ten year old girls body. I'm not trying to be harsh, that's just how he looks to me.
    Who would've thought a children's cartoon to be childish.....
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  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    It's cliche, but, well, the guys in charge just "don't get it"; or, more appropriately, they don't "get" Nova readers.
    I'm sure they get it. They don't have to do stories based on your made up rules. There has always been more than one Nova so while Rider is out of the picture, a new one can take his place. Nova really doesn't have the fanbase of a Spider-Man or even a Captain America or even a Hawkeye, so maybe you all are actually mad that Sam Alexander might forever be the main Nova and be more popular than Rich Rider ever was? He's certainly got the backing to be. High profile creators, spot on a big cartoon, and heavily featured in the recent AVX event.

    But really, you shouldn't speak for anyone but yourself, I've read Nova for years and I'm fine with the change. It could be entertaining. There's been other Novas other than Rich Rider so this is not as far fetched as many of you are making it out to be.
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  11. #176
    Veteran Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelord View Post
    Nova really came into his own with Volume IV - a radical departure from the Peter Parker-ish conceptualization of the 70's and 90's. Fans embraced the tough, powerful, leader of men conceptualization and the space-based storylines.
    Disregarding the fact that it may have taken 30 years for a version of Richard Rider to finally be embraced by the fans, who are these fans exactly that would be this upset? The book was cancelled because it couldn't sustain sales. And if that's the most notable version of Richard Rider, it might make sense for Marvel to take a chance moving on and trying a different take with the character.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey Brown View Post

    But really, you shouldn't speak for anyone but yourself, I've read Nova for years and I'm fine with the change. It could be entertaining. There's been other Novas other than Rich Rider so this is not as far fetched as many of you are making it out to be.

    That is the copout that has been driving me crazy in this whole thing. When people and editors keep saying "well its always been just like Green Lantern and there have been many Novas over the years". That is not entirely true. There might have been a new Nova for and arc or two over the decades, but Rich was always THE Nova. It's not like Green Lantern where Hal is around for years then John takes over for years at a time and so on. Whenever we have seen a new Nova they are gone pretty quick and Rich was back. They seem to be making it that way NOW, but this is not the way it used to be no matte how they spin it.


    Honestly to me the main thing proping this book up is McGuinness art. If he was not on the book with Loeb I don't know if alot of people would buy it on Loeb name alone. He is sort of Loeb mains crutch these days.

  13. #178
    Senior Member 40yearoldnovafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    Yeah, I remember the original response as well. Richard Rider stories that were "street level Peter Parker-esque" stories never resonated with the fans, and certainly not with me. But once Richard Rider was blasting off into cosmic stories, I was glued to everything that happened. "Nova" never did well as a riff on Peter Park, mainly because we already HAD Peter Parker stories. "Nova" was at its best when Richard Rider was NOT following the predictable path of Peter Parker's character evolution, mainly because *shock and awe!* Richard Rider was NOT Peter Parker and he didn't have to try and be the next Peter Parker.

    When Richard Rider was forging his own identity as his own unique self, that's where "Nova" excelled, and Richard was a character that just felt like he belonged in space. There's a reason I praised heaven above when Nova came back from "Annihilation", saw all the crap going on in Civil War, and told the earth heroes to screw off, flew into space, and decided to just ignore earth problems since an entire galaxy needed him more. That was where he belonged. That was where the story belonged. It was something fresh and different and much appreciated.

    It's bone-headed decisions to replace already young characters with newer "hipster" teenagers (written with eye-rolling penmanship of middle-aged adult men who have no clue what kids actually like while) that helped push me to stop reading comics. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the fact Marvel created an entire alternate universe (Ultimate Marvel) for that VERY reason? So creators could avoid mucking around with beloved, popular, well-liked characters without fear of backlash since these would be alternate stories in an alternate universe? Where Nick Fury could be Samuel L. Jackson, Spider-man could be someone other than Peter Parker, and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver could engage in icky incestuous acts? I mean, as a fan of all of the above, I'd be mortified at these changes, but as alternate universe tales I can stomach them.

    So, why didn't Marvel decide to make this Sam Alexander kid the "Ultimate Marvel" Nova and just let Richard Rider fans keep the character they've embraced for the last several decades? If they genuinely believed Nova fans would embrace some new immature kid taking on the role, I think they've got a very big disconnect between what they think fans want and what they actual want.

    I've almost never seen a popular character "replaced" that ever truly worked, even the ones I preferred changes to. At the end of the day, everyone ALWAYS prefers the original heroes they grew up loving. No matter how much I thought Kyle Raynor was a good Green Lantern, he's no Hal. No matter how much I liked Dick Grayson putting his spin on Batman, he's no Bruce. No matter how much I liked Bucky as Captain America, Steve Rogers is the better man for the job. No matter how much I prefer Wally West, we've got Barry Allen back and Wally's gone without any signs he's coming back. Johnny Blaze is going to remain the better Ghost Rider. I can't think of any real "replacement" that ever lasted or that fans fully ever embraced. In nearly 80 years, it has never really worked...

    ... So why do they keep trying? I'm certainly not thrilled that my favorite comic book character is out of action and someone else has jumped in to take his title. To me, that just tells me I can stop reading about my favorite hero until I hear word that he's come back... if he comes back. But as a Nova fan of the past several decades, I can say I'm officially not interested in the upcoming Nova title.

    It's cliche, but, well, the guys in charge just "don't get it"; or, more appropriately, they don't "get" Nova readers.
    I agree. When DC started replacing their original characters with the younger guys, I was not a fan. And obviously, a lot of folks were not because, after a time the originals came back and assumed their roles (Batman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Wonder Woman, etc). Maybe Marvel feels Nova was "popular enough" so they could pull the bait and switch and garner more fans. Marvel must have known die hard Nova fans would be ticked, and someone somewhere thought "yeah, we will lose a few, but that shouldn't hurt much."

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Disregarding the fact that it may have taken 30 years for a version of Richard Rider to finally be embraced by the fans, who are these fans exactly that would be this upset? The book was cancelled because it couldn't sustain sales. And if that's the most notable version of Richard Rider, it might make sense for Marvel to take a chance moving on and trying a different take with the character.
    These fans whose feelings you so casually disregard to make the obvious point that Marvel can and will do whatever they want with their intellectual property are the 30-40K who consistently bought Volume IV from the first to the last issue. And BTW it didn't take 30 years for a version to be embraced. Rich had a fan base from 1976 and another from the 90's New Warrior era to build on. Among the vast majority of uber-fans of the character - Volume IV is considered the greatest version; but we obviously liked the earlier versions too.

    30-40K would be a great sales number for any indie comic and for most DC comics. But Marvel finds it unacceptable. And FYI, Joe Quesada has stated that the reason for Nova's and GotG's cancellation was not sales.

    I suppose a portion of that fan block will buy NINO; but another portion will - like me - not buy it on principle. Marvel can do whatever they want. But I don't have to buy it. And if a large portion of that 30-40K feels like I do or is alienated by Sam Alexander and by Marvel Editorial's attitude - then this book won't last long if Marvel applies the same rules to their golden boy Loeb as they apply to everyone else. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

    If you're an uber-fan of a particular character, maybe someone will decide to hijack that character at some point. See how you feel about it when it's your favorite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylun123 View Post
    Disregarding the fact that it may have taken 30 years for a version of Richard Rider to finally be embraced by the fans, who are these fans exactly that would be this upset? The book was cancelled because it couldn't sustain sales. And if that's the most notable version of Richard Rider, it might make sense for Marvel to take a chance moving on and trying a different take with the character.
    Oh - and one more thing. The point that you obviously missed just to make an argument and an implied criticism that I and others are being unreasonable about this issue is that the uber-fans can and did embrace change WHEN IT WAS FOR THE BETTER IN THAT IT IMPROVED THE CHARACTER/CHARACTERIZATION/CONCEPT. This constant straw man argument by Wacker and other casual or non-fans that the Nova fans are just engaging in typical fanboy rage when any change is introduced is rendered null by that fact. Volume IV was a radical change for Nova - and it was embraced by the uber-fans. NINO is a regression of the concepts to a version inferior to the original. Of course most uber-fans don't like it.
    Last edited by timelord; 12-26-2012 at 03:16 PM.

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