Would Joker have been a prominent character in TDKR if Heath Ledger didn't die?

[Nefarius]

I don't believe that Joker would be a prominent character in the third film,but we would definitely have a cameo of Joker(just imagine the kangaroo court with Joker instead of Scarecrow).

[BraveSirRobin]

I don't know to be honest. He's almost too strong a character. If someone like Bane with this epic master plan comes along and tries to create rules and order of a kind, the Joker is not going to hang around and watch this. He wants chaos, he wants mayhem, some thug with delusions of grandeur (as the Joker would probably see it) trying to rule the city through fear goes against that totally. As much as you can apply logic to the Joker the most probable action he would take would be AGAINST Bane, and then Ledger/Joker steals the film yet again. Tom Hardy was good as Bane, but he was not in the same league as Heath Ledger.

[T Hedge Coke]

He wants chaos, he wants mayhem

I sometimes wonder if I watched an alternate reality's version of TDK, because the one I saw had a Joker who planned all the time and got really upset when things didn't go according to plan. I don't remember him once being glad things didn't go according to plan, but instead, went to chaos or unpredictability.

[Mr. Holmes]

I sometimes wonder if I watched an alternate reality's version of TDK, because the one I saw had a Joker who planned all the time and got really upset when things didn't go according to plan. I don't remember him once being glad things didn't go according to plan, but instead, went to chaos or unpredictability.

That's the whole irony of the character.

I love that scene when he looked up surprised when there were no fireworks. A small touch of vulnerability to him.

[Wild_Child]

Some men(and women,gay,handicaped,blacks,chinese) want to watch the world burn.

[David Walton]

Nolan didn't even have a concept for DKR until after Ledger had tragically passed, so it probably would have been an entirely different story.

Honestly, I envision something much closer to The Dark Knight Returns. But it's all speculation.

[Mr. Holmes]

Nolan didn't even have a concept for DKR until after Ledger had tragically passed, so it probably would have been an entirely different story.

Honestly, I envision something much closer to The Dark Knight Returns. But it's all speculation.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Joker would quiet down over the years in Arkham and the moment Batman returns...

[David Walton]

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Joker would quiet down over the years in Arkham and the moment Batman returns...

It makes a lot of sense, especially considering that the Joker is the only Nolan villain other than the Scarecrow who didn't meet an untimely end.

[Bruce Kent]

I sometimes wonder if I watched an alternate reality's version of TDK, because the one I saw had a Joker who planned all the time and got really upset when things didn't go according to plan. I don't remember him once being glad things didn't go according to plan, but instead, went to chaos or unpredictability.

I think the concept of "if you watch chaos long enough, order appears". The Joker is like that. He's not really about chaos, he simply orders things in such a way that we perceived it as chaos.

[David Walton]

I think the concept of "if you watch chaos long enough, order appears". The Joker is like that. He's not really about chaos, he simply orders things in such a way that we perceived it as chaos.

I think maybe Mr. Holmes is talking more about the way TDK's Joker is more concerned with exposing civilization as a form of hypocrisy instead of...well, patenting laughing fish. One Joker talks about absurdity, the other lives it.

[Haytil]

If Ledger was still alive though? I think I'm skeptical that he would have been involved again. He was widely known to be more into being an actor than into being a movie star, and he had to accept a lot of unwanted hype to play the Joker the one time. I remember reading somewhere how someone said to him, "Now you realize what's about to happen, right? Are you ready to see yourself for sale in toy stores as an action figure?"

Ledger went on record as saying that the Joker was the greatest, most fun role he played in his entire career. I'm sure he would have loved to have come back. In addition, he and Nolan formed a friendship that I'm sure Ledger valued. He was an aspiring filmmaker in his own right and wanted to learn from Nolan.

Furthermore, like Bale, I'm sure he had to sign a multi-part movie contract in order to get the part. So he knew that if he wanted to play the Joker in "The Dark Knight" that he might be required to come back for the sequel.

By the way, has Nolan said anything at all about Ledger (or more specifically his passing) in any of the bonus features on any DVD or Blu-Ray of either TDK or TDKR? I haven't seen them all. On an unrelated topic, I have the same question about mentions of the Aurora, Colarado shooting on TDKR's opening night.

I don't know about Bonus Features, those tend to be somewhat sparse. But Nolan did write a touching response to his death (I think in the form of a letter to a news magazine? I don't remember), talking about how Ledger was an aspiring filmmaker and that he felt it was his responsibility, as director and editor, to showcase Ledger's final, great performance for the world to see, as best as he could - and that it was hard, while editing "The Dark Knight," to keep seeing his friend's face, as if he was still working with him, all while knowing that he had passed away very recently.

This thread makes me think of something that's always nagged at me in regards to the whole Nolan Batman trilogy. Nolan insists that after Batman Begins he didn't know for sure that he would want to do a sequel, and the same after The Dark Knight, that a trilogy was never his original intention.

I think he put it best in the forward to "The Art and Making of the Dark Knight Trilogy:"

"People ask if we’d always planned a trilogy. This is like being asked whether you had planned on growing up, getting married, having kids. The answer is complicated."

They didn't plan on a trilogy, but they also didn't plan on NOT doing a trilogy. It just kind of naturally evolved. That's life.

This, in spite of moments in the films such as Gordon handing Batman the Joker card and Batman saying "I'll look into it."

Everyone knows that the Joker is an integral part of the mythology, and the Joker card is a perfect way of signaling that the Batman mythology is really getting into motion now - that Batman has, once again, "begun," along with all that that implies, such as the rise of the Joker. As Batman Begins, so does the Joker.

The Joker saying "I think you and I are destined to do this forever."

This is definitely a reference to the comics and the endless struggle between the two (as well as a more explicit reference to the dialog in "The Killing Joke").

Bruce asking Fox if the new armor would hold up against dogs and Fox saying "Should do fine against cats."

Again, a comic reference, nothing more. There was a similar Killer Croc reference in the latest one - but that doesn't mean that Nolan had a plan to do 4 movies all along and that we can expect Killer Croc to be the villain in the next one.

It's that last line especially that gets me, even though Nolan says he had to be convinced going into TDKR that Catwoman would fit his vision.

I think it's somewhat clear that Catwoman was a late addition to the "Dark Knight Rises" story. She doesn't fit in, thematically or plot-wise, with Bane or the main story. It feels like she could be removed from the story completely and it would barely affect anybody's motivations or actions. When they said she was added later, and that it was because Jonah Nolan really campaigned to Chris Nolan to include her, it instantly clicked and made sense. There's no way they were making that up.

The "do this forever" line by the Joker would seem to indicate that he probably intended to use the character again in some way, but after Ledger's death he completely abandoned the idea.

I agree that, between keeping Joker alive and referencing their eternal struggle, it's pretty clear that Nolan would have used the Joker for part 3, if he could have. But that doesn't mean he knew exactly what that role would have been, nor that he was sure he was even going to do a part 3 in the first place.

Nolan is smart - he doesn't burn bridges or shut doors unnecessarily. But that doesn't mean he knows which doors he's going to be walking through in the future. He just, wisely, keeps his options open.

[Sacred Knight]

In some form Joker would have definitely been back. If only a cameo, or maybe a role similar to Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. But Ledger would have been in the film, I'm absolutely convinced of that.

[vicvega]

what I don't get is how they might've transitioned two-face from this tragic, sympathetic revenge-driven villain to a full-out villainous person. His character arc in TDK doesn't work in my head if he were to become a full on scumbag in the third one.

[Keehar]

There's no question in my mind that the Joker would have been in TDKR in a prominent role if Ledger was still alive. Apart from the immense popularity of the character and the fact he lived, Joker had unfinished business. Gordon and Batman covered up what he did to Harvey Dent. Joker would not have stood idly by and let that cover up make the city prosper for years without crime.

[pinkfloydsound17]

Tricky discussion

On one hand, if Ledgr had lived, I personally would have loved to see him again in the final installment. Maybe forcing Batman to have to ally with the Joker in his quest to defeat Bane. Or hell, even just having to deal with both of them at the same time...one enemy that physically tests Batman and the other that mentally pushes him to the brink. It could have taken more from the Knightfall arc and who knows, it may have been an epic spectacle.

You could also argue that it would have been too much and that regardless of Ledger's death, maybe the third film was never destined to have the Joker. We have all seen what happens when superhero films try to pack too much in. I think Ledger's performance (regardless of his unfortunate death) was and will always be amazing. And I also think that Hardy did a great job giving Bane a deeper and unique personality that differed from the comics.

That is what I like about what Nolan did to Batman as opposed to what Raimi did to Spider-Man. Nolan made it his own with some of his own tweaks but did not convolute it to the point where it was all flash and no substance. Raimi botched one of the biggest moments in Spidey's history (death of Gwen and Green Goblin), had a good sequel and then a terrible final installment.