View Poll Results: As a minority, does Marvel represent your race well?

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  • Yes

    24 22.64%
  • No

    82 77.36%
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  1. #106
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    But Young Avengers has a more diverse diversity. Gen X was wonderfully diverse... but it still lacked any LGBT characters (so it wasn't perfect... then again, what series is?). Young Avengers isn't perfect... but unlike Gen X, Young Avengers gets attacked for it's "lack of diversity"; which is odd, considering how Gen X had no LGBT characters... are POC in comics more important than LGBT ones???


    No. I'm saying the ration of POC remains as it always has... with one. Why do you think a latina woman counts less as a POC than a straight black male in some posters eyes?


    If Wiccan was replaced by a lesbian I wouldn't be happy (depending on who the character is, might soften the blow)... but I would never, EVER start calling the team "lacking diversity." That would be silly.
    Homosexuality is a trait that can be part of any race and/or any gender regardless of said persons social economic status. Just because a team has one person of color and 2 WHITE gay guys on said team DOES MOT make said team more diverse then a team made up of a large or mostly non white team roster of straight characters (or GLBT characters).

  2. #107
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegastorm View Post
    Ok so what do you think that means or what point are you trying to make about that?

    o
    No point at all. I just thought that it was weird/strange that the same thing has happened to 2 different minority characters.

  3. #108
    Veteran Member Leocomix's Avatar
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    I've found this debate unsettling because a lot of lobbying seems to me as just another type of racism, i.e. one considers characters according to their ethnic origin rather than for the character they are.

    Here's what I think is a more sane viewpoint:

    Nrama: It's been revealed recently that Amadeus Cho is the third main character in Savage Wolverine, a surprising place to see the character. What motivated including him? And, as an Asian-American comic creator, how important is it to you to keep a character like Amadeus in rotation at Marvel?

    Cho: I'm a very color-blind writer. When I write a story, the race of the character is never a factor unless I'm writing a race-motivated story. I've chosen Amadeus Cho in this story for the simple reason that I needed a genius level character who can solve the riddle of the island and a character who doesn't have too much backstory baggage.

  4. #109
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RolandJP View Post
    Take Wakanda for example: The nation was attacked by Namor and its populace drowned. Not much outrage by other groups.

    but lets say the nation was a lesbian one--say like Paradise Island..and NAMOR did his thing killing thousands of lesbian Amazons..wouldn't gays (specifically lesbians) be upset..especially at the lack of compassion toward those characters.

    With the majority making drowned lesbian jokes ( and continuing the comparison) dissing Wonder Woman about how bad of a leader she was.

    Seems overboard.
    Nope. Paradise Island gets destroyed every other week. It gets tossed into demon dimensions, shattered by gods, thrown into the path of alien death rays...ect.

    The Amazons themselves are routinely slaughtered in droves to show calamity in the DCU. They're currently a statue garden, having been turned to stone a year ago now and counting.

    And no one kicks up a fuss like Black Panther's fans seem to over a story element as throw away as flooding Wakanda. Notable fictional nation = target practice to show calamity. Nothing racist about this.

    Black Panther fans are an obnoxiously entitled lot who seem to expect their favorite character to be above the usual tribulations of every other comic book character.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leocomix View Post
    I've found this debate unsettling because a lot of lobbying seems to me as just another type of racism, i.e. one considers characters according to their ethnic origin rather than for the character they are.

    Here's what I think is a more sane viewpoint:

    Nrama: It's been revealed recently that Amadeus Cho is the third main character in Savage Wolverine, a surprising place to see the character. What motivated including him? And, as an Asian-American comic creator, how important is it to you to keep a character like Amadeus in rotation at Marvel?

    Cho: I'm a very color-blind writer. When I write a story, the race of the character is never a factor unless I'm writing a race-motivated story. I've chosen Amadeus Cho in this story for the simple reason that I needed a genius level character who can solve the riddle of the island and a character who doesn't have too much backstory baggage.
    I think that was a good bit from Cho but I'm not sure which posts go against that. What I actually see here is that many of us are readers despite the fact that we feel our gender, race, and/or orientation isn't greatly represented.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leocomix View Post
    I've found this debate unsettling because a lot of lobbying seems to me as just another type of racism, i.e. one considers characters according to their ethnic origin rather than for the character they are.

    Here's what I think is a more sane viewpoint:

    Nrama: It's been revealed recently that Amadeus Cho is the third main character in Savage Wolverine, a surprising place to see the character. What motivated including him? And, as an Asian-American comic creator, how important is it to you to keep a character like Amadeus in rotation at Marvel?

    Cho: I'm a very color-blind writer. When I write a story, the race of the character is never a factor unless I'm writing a race-motivated story. I've chosen Amadeus Cho in this story for the simple reason that I needed a genius level character who can solve the riddle of the island and a character who doesn't have too much backstory baggage.
    I have two problems with what you said, and a problem with what Cho said.

    My problem with what you said is that a) that's not racism. that's lobbying for more inclusion, the opposite. b) and two, you act as if their ethnic origin isn't a part of their character.


    And that goes along with what my problem with Cho's response. Colorblindness is not a good thing, and I'm sick of people acting like it is. That implies ignorance or just not wanting to learn or understand the numerous and varying struggles and cultures of POCs. And when you insist on writing a character "colorblind" even if you make an exception for "race motivated stories" you are outright avoiding a character trait. Probably because you are uncomfortable in handing it maturely. And maturely means not just saving it for a PSA like story, but integrating in into the character as if it's just another aspect of their characterization.
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  7. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Nope. Paradise Island gets destroyed every other week. It gets tossed into demon dimensions, shattered by gods, thrown into the path of alien death rays...ect.

    The Amazons themselves are routinely slaughtered in droves to show calamity in the DCU. They're currently a statue garden, having been turned to stone a year ago now and counting.

    And no one kicks up a fuss like Black Panther's fans seem to over a story element as throw away as flooding Wakanda. Notable fictional nation = target practice to show calamity. Nothing racist about this.

    Black Panther fans are an obnoxiously entitled lot who seem to expect their favorite character to be above the usual tribulations of every other comic book character.
    Again i said Amazons with emphasis on lesbian archetypes. ( as In if they were categorized as a solely lesbian population)

    All Black Panther fans want is to be obnoxiously as entitled as their non-minority(reader) counterparts. Which seems to be a point of contention.

    But that is all window dressing. The Point is moot and rather obvious. Add a minority member to any team and instantly echoes of PC or unwarranted includism is stated. how is wanting the same opportunity as non-minority characters---> entitlement?


    I find your going there odd. And telling.
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  8. #113
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RolandJP View Post
    how is wanting the same opportunity as non-minority characters---> entitlement?

    I find your going there odd. And telling.
    I just told you: an equivalent nation concept (advanced tech, tribal ways and all) is treated identically to Wakanda (well...worse, actually).

    Wakanda is pretty much Paradise Island in the Marvel Universe, and Wakanda sees a great deal more respect (despite PI's queen and princess being white-ish).

    As for other hardships...this is comics. Characters are constantly having the rug pulled out from under them. Steve and Sharon have been trying for happily ever after for decades, with tradgedy after tradgedy constantly wrenching that up - including her forced abortion and his death at her hand. Wanda has been transformed into the anti-christ. Thor has been repeatedly killed, his kingdom hurled to earth and destroyed.

    There is no double standard here. You're simply seeing one because you wish to.
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    And that goes along with what my problem with Cho's response. Colorblindness is not a good thing, and I'm sick of people acting like it is. That implies ignorance or just not wanting to learn or understand the numerous and varying struggles and cultures of POCs. And when you insist on writing a character "colorblind" even if you make an exception for "race motivated stories" you are outright avoiding a character trait. Probably because you are uncomfortable in handing it maturely. And maturely means not just saving it for a PSA like story, but integrating in into the character as if it's just another aspect of their characterization.
    To be fair, I would factor in context and the writer's skill level.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    To be fair, I would factor in context and the writer's skill level.
    Yeah, I agreed.
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  11. #116
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Colorblindness is not a good thing, and I'm sick of people acting like it is. That implies ignorance or just not wanting to learn or understand the numerous and varying struggles and cultures of POCs. And when you insist on writing a character "colorblind" even if you make an exception for "race motivated stories" you are outright avoiding a character trait. Probably because you are uncomfortable in handing it maturely. And maturely means not just saving it for a PSA like story, but integrating in into the character as if it's just another aspect of their characterization.
    Umm...isn't the goal here equality? I mean, that's what I thought it was. The idea that Captain America should be interchangeable with Black Panther, ect, without race being a factor? Isn't that the very defenition of colour blindness?

    Forgive me, seriously, if I'm missing something here...but what character trait is being overlooked by wishing to see characters as equals?

    I mean, gay persons are maligned and demonized in society but I would never wish to read about one who spent pages and pages lamenting the hardships of being gay. I'd simply want to see him enjoying the company of his partner, and leading an otherwise normal life (or, as normal as superheroes get). Billy and Teddy = awesome. Kyle Rayner's little friend = fully lame.

    I wish the same with POC's. I don't want an exposition on the slave trade. I want to see everyday people who are simply the equal of everyone around them. I kind of figured that's what everyone wanted.

    If you want to see these characters portrayed as victims....isn't that the inverse of equality?
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  12. #117
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Not necessarily I suppose they want some realism. That does not mean I want exclusive focus on such issues but it being totally ignored is not exactly a good thing either. Still depends on the nature of the title.
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  13. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Umm...isn't the goal here equality? I mean, that's what I thought it was. The idea that Captain America should be interchangeable with Black Panther, ect, without race being a factor? Isn't that the very defenition of colour blindness?

    Forgive me, seriously, if I'm missing something here...but what character trait is being overlooked by wishing to see characters as equals?

    I mean, gay persons are maligned and demonized in society but I would never wish to read about one who spent pages and pages lamenting the hardships of being gay. I'd simply want to see him enjoying the company of his partner, and leading an otherwise normal life (or, as normal as superheroes get). Billy and Teddy = awesome. Kyle Rayner's little friend = fully lame.

    I wish the same with POC's. I don't want an exposition on the slave trade. I want to see everyday people who are simply the equal of everyone around them. I kind of figured that's what everyone wanted.

    If you want to see these characters portrayed as victims....isn't that the inverse of equality?


    OOOh the funny hypocrisy of colorblindness, lets see how many white fan boy would really read a well written hero group book where they just happen to be mostly black guys , the only sound you would be able to hear would be the mass whipping of heads as some of these so-called equality of character supporters in name only their collective heads to pretend to not notice this taboo-breaking collection of funny pages.
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  14. #119
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    Not necessarily I suppose they want some realism. That does not mean I want exclusive focus on such issues but it being totally ignored is not exactly a good thing either. Still depends on the nature of the title.
    That is a very realistic portrayal. It's definately a regional thing, for sure, but the entire globe isn't a hotbed of racism. I know many people who just treat everyone like everyone else. I wouldn't bother socializing with someone who wasn't like this.

    People are just people.

    I can see wanting to see more people of colour in these pages. That makes perfect sense. Wanting them to be portrayed as social victims somehow seems absurd to me. It would weaken the character to the point of making thier heroics seem a farce.

    This is largely the problem I've had accepting X-titles, to be honest. They create thier victimhood by wallowing in it rather than leading productive lives. Wanda is, again, more an exaple of Xavier's dream than any one of the X-men, because she chose to live among everyone else and embrace thier sameness rather than engage in self segregation and self pitty.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dkrook View Post
    OOOh the funny hypocrisy of colorblindness, lets see how many white fan boy would really read a well written hero group book where they just happen to be mostly black guys , the only sound you would be able to hear would be the mass whipping of heads as some of these so-called equality of character supporters in name only their collective heads to pretend to not notice this taboo-breaking collection of funny pages.
    What is it that would make them unique? What is that quality that is averse to colourblindness?

    I'm genuinely curious here. Can you give me as specific an example(s) of what it is that would make them improperly rendered by someone who chooses to write them colourblind.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

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