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  1. #31
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    I'be heard she's too angry or weak but that doesn't seem to fit from what I've seen the past few issues.
    From what of it I read, Azzarello's Diana doesn't seem to be strikingly different in personality from, say, Simone's.

    The largest change in her temperament since the Perez reboot, I think, was during the Rucka run. Perez's Diana was a somewhat naive optimist. I think Rucka essentially swapped in the backstory of the Kingdom Come Diana for the Perez Diana. His Wonder Woman was always an unliberated and tragic figure, driven to drastic measures by constantly being boxed into unwinnable situations. Rucka's Wonder Woman was care-worn with the burdens of duty, much more solemn and aloof than Perez's.

    I do think Azzarello's Diana has more in common with Rucka's than with Perez's; then again Azzarello's run on the book is even drearier than Rucka's. Johns's Wonder Woman combines the worst features of both of them; the naivete of Perez and the warlike nature of the Kingdom Come version.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  2. #32
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    OK. But that doesn't quite translate into a pattern of "always trying to rush into a fight" (as DarthTwiggy put it). In this particular instance, she saw what appeared to be an obvious case of slavery, involving her own brothers, and she tried to rectify it--and not in the most violent way possible, but simply by capturing Heph in the lasso of truth and attempting to rally the boys. If she had happened to be right, I'd don't think we'd even see her actions as all that impulsive. But she might have been more deliberate in her reaction to this if she hadn't just lost her family (and indeed, her country), found out that her mother and some of her sisters had been lying to her over the course of her lie, and found about the even darker parts of her family history. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be at my calmest and most deliberate under those circumstances. Maybe Perez's Wonder Woman would have been--if she was really as "perfect" as some say, for better or worse. But she would have felt similar compassion for the boys, and would have reacted similarly in many other instances--such as loving Hades and being able to say "I love everyone" while wearing the lasso, using Eros' weapon to tryto help hades, and embracing a sister who was trying to kill her. So are there differences between these two interpretations of the character? Sure. But is there a common core? Yes.
    Just pointing out, that although she hasn't been quick to rush to judgement, she did act in my opinion impulsively in the Hepaestus issue. Someone tried to say that she hasn't done that in her own book.

  3. #33
    Universal Turing machine cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    cgh,
    Wonderful and I am not being sarcastic. However, I have to bring some baggage to this particular stop.

    After years of interacting with comic book fans (at Cons and Message Board) and various (well known, established) writers who have had no problem labeling WW is a crappy character, and using her as a lame, butt of joke, I have a problem with many of the same people now saying that they love the character. That nothing was ever wrong with her and that all of the issues were her surrounding details.

    Even Azzarello has gone on record that he felt that (before he touched her with a magic wand), she was a bust because readers could not relate to her. But now that she has a dysfunctional family, readers can relate to her. Why? Her central character is the same isn't it?

    The largest previous issue people had with the WW character was that she was too "perfect." Now that is a direct character trait. If she is the same perfect WW why wouldn't people still dislike her?

    The thing is that the WW character doesn't just appear in the WW comic. She is in JLA and guesting in other titles. And WW in JLA is not acting the same way that WW used to act in JLA. There is another thread on this message board about the differences in WW between Azzarello's Diana and Johns' Diana. So if the current WW is being written in a noticeably different way in 2 books, why wouldn't she be different than she was over 25 years ago?
    Fair points, and to be honest you seem to know more about Azzarello's goals than I do as I don't typically read too many interviews and that sort of thing (I probably should). All I know is what I've read so far, and to me it appears that WW's character didn't change very much - she's still tough but compassionate, a defender of the defenseless and all the other things we enjoy reading about. It's true that she is sort of unrelatable - let's face it, she is a demigod - and I don't think Azzarello has changed that much. If that was his intention, then it hasn't exactly worked out because she's still a bit of a cipher.

    I don't read JLA so I can't comment much about it. I do tend to think that expecting or enforcing perfect character homogeneity across titles is pretty tough, as it puts the writers into an editorial straitjacket, and to be honest I kind of like to see other writers' takes. I understand your point that if the difference is huge, then it can be a bit jarring. Personally, I tend to like it when writers err on the side of crazy creativity vs. toeing an editorial line against their wills because you never know what sort of surprising stuff might turn up, and if that means a bit of misalignment in how the character behaves across titles, so be it.

    By the way, do you remember this cover? Probably the most morbid WW cover ever, for those complaining that WW is now a "horror" title. I'm kind of amazed it was even used back in those Comics Code days.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by cgh; 12-14-2012 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Horrid grammar
    “Wonder Woman is a lame superhero...She flies around in her invisible jet and her weaponry is a lasso that makes you tell the truth. I just don’t get it.” -- Megan Fox

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    Just pointing out, that although she hasn't been quick to rush to judgement, she did act in my opinion impulsively in the Hepaestus issue. Someone tried to say that she hasn't done that in her own book.
    Being more impulsive seems to be one of the things Azzarello openly admits is an effect of the deaging-flu DC's passed around.

    Like if we imagine the scene where she catches up with that guy who had been spying on her during her ambassador time (only hours after Sacrifice), where she appears in front of his car before throwing it at a tree. Azzarello's Diana would probably be less gentle, but we have yet to see how she really handles someone who's betrayed her (as in catching up with Hermes).

  5. #35
    Senior Member swatkat's Avatar
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    As everyone has already pointed out, there isn't a lot of difference in the core personality of Perez's Diana and Azzarello's. Azzarello's is more confident, certainly funnier (if occasionally prone to really bad puns - but it's a character quirk I've grown to enjoy) and more attuned with life outside Paradise Island, but she's still at heart the same person - she enjoys a good fight like any other Amazon, but would rather solve problems with diplomacy and/or her brains first. She's still capable of that immense love that defined her in the past.

  6. #36
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkat View Post
    As everyone has already pointed out, there isn't a lot of difference in the core personality of Perez's Diana and Azzarello's. Azzarello's is more confident, certainly funnier (if occasionally prone to really bad puns - but it's a character quirk I've grown to enjoy) and more attuned with life outside Paradise Island, but she's still at heart the same person - she enjoys a good fight like any other Amazon, but would rather solve problems with diplomacy and/or her brains first. She's still capable of that immense love that defined her in the past.
    I am not really getting that the comic is funnier than it was before. Unless everyone is thinking about the groan inducing puns that Azz puts in, otherwise, why is it so much funnier?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    I am not really getting that the comic is funnier than it was before. Unless everyone is thinking about the groan inducing puns that Azz puts in, otherwise, why is it so much funnier?
    Unlike before it seems like Diana does have a sense of humour now.

  8. #38
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Unlike before it seems like Diana does have a sense of humour now.
    Yes - Perez wrote Diana pretty straight laced.

    People dont always appreciate Diana being funny - personally I though her dropping Tom on his ass and knocking him out when it was never gonig to do any good was pretty amusing ;)
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    Fair points, and to be honest you seem to know more about Azzarello's goals than I do as I don't typically read too many interviews and that sort of thing (I probably should). All I know is what I've read so far, and to me it appears that WW's character didn't change very much - she's still tough but compassionate, a defender of the defenseless and all the other things we enjoy reading about. It's true that she is sort of unrelatable - let's face it, she is a demigod - and I don't think Azzarello has changed that much. If that was his intention, then it hasn't exactly worked out because she's still a bit of a cipher.

    I don't read JLA so I can't comment much about it. I do tend to think that expecting or enforcing perfect character homogeneity across titles is pretty tough, as it puts the writers into an editorial straitjacket, and to be honest I kind of like to see other writers' takes. I understand your point that if the difference is huge, then it can be a bit jarring. Personally, I tend to like it when writers err on the side of crazy creativity vs. toeing an editorial line against their wills because you never know what sort of surprising stuff might turn up, and if that means a bit of misalignment in how the character behaves across titles, so be it.

    By the way, do you remember this cover? Probably the most morbid WW cover ever, for those complaining that WW is now a "horror" title. I'm kind of amazed it was even used back in those Comics Code days.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I love how the skeleton has a full head of luxurious hair.

  10. #40
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Unlike before it seems like Diana does have a sense of humour now.
    Again, where is this sense of humor your talking about. I have read all the Azz issues, and I am not necessarily getting that sense, anymore so than instances in the Wonder Woman run before the hard reboot.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    Again, where is this sense of humor your talking about. I have read all the Azz issues, and I am not necessarily getting that sense, anymore so than instances in the Wonder Woman run before the hard reboot.
    Her sense of humor may not be everyone's cup of the tea; it can be a little dry, and if you don't like puns, it'll turn you off sometimes. But I like puns, and I like dry humor, so I'd actually like to see more of her sense of humor. But some examples include:

    1. Issue 2: Diana teases Zola about how she should have left her behind in the middle of nowhere. Note the smirk
    2. Issue 4: Diana acknowledges that Strife is "trying" (punningly indicating that Strife is trying her patience).
    3. Issue 6: Diana jokes to Zola "I thought I told you to stay close"
    4. Issue 8: Wryly notes how much Hermes seems to be enjoying holding his own in a fight. (Not exactly funny, but it shows she can be wry, which I think goes to her sense of humor).
    5.Issue 10: "Meat? Meet an Amazon."
    6. Issue 12: "MY best defense? My cuffs were yours." (Not a joke, but shows a sense of irony.)Also, once again teases Zola that she was supposed to stay close.
    7. Issue 0: Banter with the harpy.

    If we are talking about the sense of humor of the run as a whole, not just the character, I'd point to a lot of Strife's lines ("split happens"), some of Zola's (especially the one about writing one's name in firefly stuff), and elements of absurdity in the redesigns of Poseidon and Hades, among other things.

    There may have been pre-FLashpoint runs in which she has as good a sense of humor, but I would say Perez's was probably not one of them.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    Again, where is this sense of humor your talking about. I have read all the Azz issues, and I am not necessarily getting that sense, anymore so than instances in the Wonder Woman run before the hard reboot.
    I am not talking about the Deadpool kind.

  13. #43
    Universal Turing machine cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    I love how the skeleton has a full head of luxurious hair.
    I know, nice touch by Miller. You have to wonder: what if Frank Miller had written Wonder Woman instead of DKR? You want to talk about changes in the character, well...
    “Wonder Woman is a lame superhero...She flies around in her invisible jet and her weaponry is a lasso that makes you tell the truth. I just don’t get it.” -- Megan Fox

  14. #44
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Her sense of humor may not be everyone's cup of the tea; it can be a little dry, and if you don't like puns, it'll turn you off sometimes. But I like puns, and I like dry humor, so I'd actually like to see more of her sense of humor. But some examples include:

    1. Issue 2: Diana teases Zola about how she should have left her behind in the middle of nowhere. Note the smirk
    2. Issue 4: Diana acknowledges that Strife is "trying" (punningly indicating that Strife is trying her patience).
    3. Issue 6: Diana jokes to Zola "I thought I told you to stay close"
    4. Issue 8: Wryly notes how much Hermes seems to be enjoying holding his own in a fight. (Not exactly funny, but it shows she can be wry, which I think goes to her sense of humor).
    5.Issue 10: "Meat? Meet an Amazon."
    6. Issue 12: "MY best defense? My cuffs were yours." (Not a joke, but shows a sense of irony.)Also, once again teases Zola that she was supposed to stay close.
    7. Issue 0: Banter with the harpy.

    If we are talking about the sense of humor of the run as a whole, not just the character, I'd point to a lot of Strife's lines ("split happens"), some of Zola's (especially the one about writing one's name in firefly stuff), and elements of absurdity in the redesigns of Poseidon and Hades, among other things.

    There may have been pre-FLashpoint runs in which she has as good a sense of humor, but I would say Perez's was probably not one of them.
    Many of your examples are of the 'puns', and if that is much of the humor that people are getting out of the books, then I stand corrected. Not that I think the puns have been funny, more of the groan inducing variety for me, but if that is what people are getting out of it, so be it.

  15. #45
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I am not talking about the Deadpool kind.
    Even though I haven't read Deadpool, I am familiar with the humor of his books. And I didn't think Wonder Woman went the extreme method ala Deadpool for the funny/humor comments that people have been suggesting.

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