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  1. #1

    Default Is Diana different now than when perez wrote her?

    So obviously a lot has been said about Azzerelo's take on Wonder Woman, some love it, some hate it, some are okay with it. Though from what I've seen those that hate it are generally older WW fans who prefer the George Perez version of her character.

    I've never read an issue of that run (yet) so I'm confused as to why this version of Diana is so not on the level of what they're used too.

    Now an unfavorable view of the twists to the lore of the Amazons and her origin is understandable and I don't want to touch that, that is a beaten horse.

    What I want to discuss is not the world around her, but Wonder Woman herself.

    What is different about this version of Diana vs the Perez version of Diana?

    Because to be honest, if the few Ruka issues I've read are any indication, she seems on par with how she's always been.

    This is honest ignorance from somebody who likes WW from what I've seen in New 52 and the hiketeia. am I missing something? Is there an aspect of her thats missing that I'm not seeing?

    I'be heard she's too angry or weak but that doesn't seem to fit from what I've seen the past few issues.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Arvandor's Avatar
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    It's not Diana who's different, so much as everything and everyone around her. You make a fair point that Diana's core persona is unchanged, but The Amazons, the Gods, the entire supporting cast, and the whole theme and tone, is different. Some like it. Some (like me) don't.
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    It is like Azzarello said in an interview at one point, he hasn't changed Diana as he's changed the world around her. And while I know some people here groan at them or find them improper somehow, Azzarello's version has some humour about her as well even if they are puns (which I honestly cant remember when the old version had last...except perhaps in that JLA issue where she burst out laughing at the notion of her being with Superman).

    As for too angry...I think that's Johns' version of her that's easy to anger. Like all it took was a few lines from Jordan for her to want his head, while Poseidon could swat her around and she was still trying to be diplomatic afterwards.

  4. #4
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    I don't really think there is that much of a difference between Perez and Azzarello's Diana. They are both compassionate, both have strong moral cores and are idealistic, kind, courageous, loving, fair and all those other good things we tend to associate with Wonder Woman. Maybe Azzarello's Diana is a bit more impulsive and prone to letting her actions speak for her, but most of those actions are acts of kindness and compassion, maybe she leans a bit more towards being stoic and isn't "preachy" as some accuse Perez's Diana of being. The biggest difference I can think of is that Perez's Diana seemed very unsure of herself, whereas Azzarello's Diana is staggering confidence to the point of occasionally being over-confident.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Don-Jack's Avatar
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    I think her persona is slightly different, but the essence is the same.
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  6. #6
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.M. Anthony View Post
    So obviously a lot has been said about Azzerelo's take on Wonder Woman, some love it, some hate it, some are okay with it. Though from what I've seen those that hate it are generally older WW fans who prefer the George Perez version of her character.
    I've never read an issue of that run (yet) so I'm confused as to why this version of Diana is so not on the level of what they're used too.
    Now an unfavorable view of the twists to the lore of the Amazons and her origin is understandable and I don't want to touch that, that is a beaten horse.
    What I want to discuss is not the world around her, but Wonder Woman herself.
    What is different about this version of Diana vs the Perez version of Diana?
    Because to be honest, if the few Ruka issues I've read are any indication, she seems on par with how she's always been.
    This is honest ignorance from somebody who likes WW from what I've seen in New 52 and the hiketeia. am I missing something? Is there an aspect of her thats missing that I'm not seeing? I'be heard she's too angry or weak but that doesn't seem to fit from what I've seen the past few issues.
    So let's be clear you want to know what are the character differences between Perez's Diana and Azzarello's?

    Accepting all the supporting characters are all different and you don't wish to discuss the difference that different supporting characters (like Ares training her from childhood, when he never did before)bring.
    Accepting that the origin is different (so now she was not raised as the sole infant with thousands of loving mothers)
    Accepting that the powers are different (so now she is not gifted with a loving heart by the goddess Aphrodite or a sisterhood with fire to open men's hearts by Hestia)

    Then you have to go back to Perez (possibly Jimenez), not to Simone or Rucka, if you are looking to find what is different about the voice of the character. Hiketeia is NOT the Perez WW. Rucka was fairly specific in stating that he felt he was writing a NEW character.

    Perez's WW was not a warrior first. She was a teacher and an ambassador. Violence was her last resort. She was the only Amazon on PI who had never been involved in real armed conflict before she left the island.
    With Perez's Diana, her use of superpowers will be more in evidence.
    You will see a character who get angry... less. When she is double crossed, she tends to get disappointed rather than upset.
    Lethal force will be used, but less frequently.
    She is going to talk. A lot.
    She doesn't enjoy conflict. You will never see her get that gritty look on her face when she is fighting.
    She will be smiling and happy most of the time. As will those around her. This may seem like a silly thing but it is a huge thing when it comes to the character herself. How many times in over a year has Azzarello's WW smiled?
    Even though they are roughly the same age, Perez's Diana will seem more mature.

    There is more, but it is probably better for you to read one or two issues of Perez to make up your own mind. His run is NOT for everyone. When it first came out, I felt it had a kind of politically correct, sad feminism to it. But it had integrity, which I thought was right for the character.

    But also... People cannot have have it both ways.

    For people who have never liked WW before, but now they do, they cannot say that the character has not changed. Because the complaints about the book before were NOT about her origin or her supporting characters. They were that Diana was too perfect. She was an ice princess. She was too goody goody. She was unrelatable.

    Or are they saying that the character is still horrible, but everything around her makes the book acceptable?

  7. #7
    Junior Member flottanna's Avatar
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    Practicably the same thing Just an updated back story and her world and gods have been updated.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    So let's be clear you want to know what are the character differences between Perez's Diana and Azzarello's?

    Accepting all the supporting characters are all different and you don't wish to discuss the difference that different supporting characters (like Ares training her from childhood, when he never did before)bring.
    Accepting that the origin is different (so now she was not raised as the sole infant with thousands of loving mothers)
    Accepting that the powers are different (so now she is not gifted with a loving heart by the goddess Aphrodite or a sisterhood with fire to open men's hearts by Hestia)

    Then you have to go back to Perez (possibly Jimenez), not to Simone or Rucka, if you are looking to find what is different about the voice of the character. Hiketeia is NOT the Perez WW. Rucka was fairly specific in stating that he felt he was writing a NEW character.

    Perez's WW was not a warrior first. She was a teacher and an ambassador. Violence was her last resort. She was the only Amazon on PI who had never been involved in real armed conflict before she left the island.
    With Perez's Diana, her use of superpowers will be more in evidence.
    You will see a character who get angry... less. When she is double crossed, she tends to get disappointed rather than upset.
    Lethal force will be used, but less frequently.
    She is going to talk. A lot.
    She doesn't enjoy conflict. You will never see her get that gritty look on her face when she is fighting.
    She will be smiling and happy most of the time. As will those around her. This may seem like a silly thing but it is a huge thing when it comes to the character herself. How many times in over a year has Azzarello's WW smiled?
    Even though they are roughly the same age, Perez's Diana will seem more mature.

    There is more, but it is probably better for you to read one or two issues of Perez to make up your own mind. His run is NOT for everyone. When it first came out, I felt it had a kind of politically correct, sad feminism to it. But it had integrity, which I thought was right for the character.

    But also... People cannot have have it both ways.

    For people who have never liked WW before, but now they do, they cannot say that the character has not changed. Because the complaints about the book before were NOT about her origin or her supporting characters. They were that Diana was too perfect. She was an ice princess. She was too goody goody. She was unrelatable.

    Or are they saying that the character is still horrible, but everything around her makes the book acceptable?
    I couldn't even read Perez' WW. I loved Rucka's run, and I love this run. You've described Perez' run perfectly, and I couldn't stand it. I thought, "Hey, I'm almost, kinda, a WW fan now, maybe I'll check out some old school WW." So, before buying, I wisely read some of one of Perez WW trade paperback. I was repulsed. I tried another, was repulsed again.

    But Azz's story I like.

  9. #9
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    One thing that confusing is how Diana is not affect by her life on P.I. She a bit of a ice princess at first but she is quickly warms up.

  10. #10
    Universal Turing machine cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    So let's be clear you want to know what are the character differences between Perez's Diana and Azzarello's?

    Accepting all the supporting characters are all different and you don't wish to discuss the difference that different supporting characters (like Ares training her from childhood, when he never did before)bring.
    Accepting that the origin is different (so now she was not raised as the sole infant with thousands of loving mothers)
    Accepting that the powers are different (so now she is not gifted with a loving heart by the goddess Aphrodite or a sisterhood with fire to open men's hearts by Hestia)

    Then you have to go back to Perez (possibly Jimenez), not to Simone or Rucka, if you are looking to find what is different about the voice of the character. Hiketeia is NOT the Perez WW. Rucka was fairly specific in stating that he felt he was writing a NEW character.

    Perez's WW was not a warrior first. She was a teacher and an ambassador. Violence was her last resort. She was the only Amazon on PI who had never been involved in real armed conflict before she left the island.
    With Perez's Diana, her use of superpowers will be more in evidence.
    You will see a character who get angry... less. When she is double crossed, she tends to get disappointed rather than upset.
    Lethal force will be used, but less frequently.
    She is going to talk. A lot.
    She doesn't enjoy conflict. You will never see her get that gritty look on her face when she is fighting.
    She will be smiling and happy most of the time. As will those around her. This may seem like a silly thing but it is a huge thing when it comes to the character herself. How many times in over a year has Azzarello's WW smiled?
    Even though they are roughly the same age, Perez's Diana will seem more mature.

    There is more, but it is probably better for you to read one or two issues of Perez to make up your own mind. His run is NOT for everyone. When it first came out, I felt it had a kind of politically correct, sad feminism to it. But it had integrity, which I thought was right for the character.

    But also... People cannot have have it both ways.

    For people who have never liked WW before, but now they do, they cannot say that the character has not changed. Because the complaints about the book before were NOT about her origin or her supporting characters. They were that Diana was too perfect. She was an ice princess. She was too goody goody. She was unrelatable.

    Or are they saying that the character is still horrible, but everything around her makes the book acceptable?
    Speaking solely for myself, ALL of my complaints about WW were to do with her environment and supporting characters. In my opinion (allow me to stress that - in my opinion), the Amazons have always sucked and the gods have always been goofy. Even reading the book back in the '80s, I would say to my very young self, "God, this is so '80s."

    Azzarello has injected the Amazons with some serious badassery (don't worry, the Amazons are coming back eventually), bringing them more in line with their Greek origins, and the gods are alien and slightly Jim Starlin-cosmic. They have obscure motives and are not to be trusted, just as the Greeks imagined them. Many readers find these changes fascinating and I suspect that accounts for why this book is selling well and has such critical acclaim.

    To address the OP's question, Azzarello upgraded everyone and everything but WW. He's shown that what was needed was a radical re-imagining of her world, not WW herself. So even reading the older cheezy stuff, you'll still recognise her.
    “Wonder Woman is a lame superhero...She flies around in her invisible jet and her weaponry is a lasso that makes you tell the truth. I just don’t get it.” -- Megan Fox

  11. #11
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    I definitely think their characters are different. Perez' Diana never seemed to have any fun. Azzarello's Diana is more relaxed and more of an everywoman than a stranger from a strange land. There was always a wall of formality between the Perez Diana and other people, she seemed a little guarded. Azzarello's Diana has a sense of humour, and is more open.

  12. #12
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    cgh,
    Wonderful and I am not being sarcastic. However, I have to bring some baggage to this particular stop.

    After years of interacting with comic book fans (at Cons and Message Board) and various (well known, established) writers who have had no problem labeling WW is a crappy character, and using her as a lame, butt of joke, I have a problem with many of the same people now saying that they love the character. That nothing was ever wrong with her and that all of the issues were her surrounding details.

    Even Azzarello has gone on record that he felt that (before he touched her with a magic wand), she was a bust because readers could not relate to her. But now that she has a dysfunctional family, readers can relate to her. Why? Her central character is the same isn't it?

    The largest previous issue people had with the WW character was that she was too "perfect." Now that is a direct character trait. If she is the same perfect WW why wouldn't people still dislike her?

    The thing is that the WW character doesn't just appear in the WW comic. She is in JLA and guesting in other titles. And WW in JLA is not acting the same way that WW used to act in JLA. There is another thread on this message board about the differences in WW between Azzarello's Diana and Johns' Diana. So if the current WW is being written in a noticeably different way in 2 books, why wouldn't she be different than she was over 25 years ago?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    cgh,
    Wonderful and I am not being sarcastic. However, I have to bring some baggage to this particular stop.

    After years of interacting with comic book fans (at Cons and Message Board) and various (well known, established) writers who have had no problem labeling WW is a crappy character, and using her as a lame, butt of joke, I have a problem with many of the same people now saying that they love the character. That nothing was ever wrong with her and that all of the issues were her surrounding details.

    Even Azzarello has gone on record that he felt that (before he touched her with a magic wand), she was a bust because readers could not relate to her. But now that she has a dysfunctional family, readers can relate to her. Why? Her central character is the same isn't it?

    The largest previous issue people had with the WW character was that she was too "perfect." Now that is a direct character trait. If she is the same perfect WW why wouldn't people still dislike her?

    The thing is that the WW character doesn't just appear in the WW comic. She is in JLA and guesting in other titles. And WW in JLA is not acting the same way that WW used to act in JLA. There is another thread on this message board about the differences in WW between Azzarello's Diana and Johns' Diana. So if the current WW is being written in a noticeably different way in 2 books, why wouldn't she be different than she was over 25 years ago?
    Maybe being a light among lights was what deterred people away previously. Amazon was filled with relatively perfect women in a perfect society sitting on a hill. I'm sure there were plenty of less than perfect women on Amazon but that was the perception. it came a cross as being too mary sue for most, things lacked the drama necessary to draw any attention.

    Now she's a light amount the darkness. The sparkle and shine has been removed for grit and dirt. Diana is now in a darker world of deceitful people, yet maintains her best qualities. That makes things more interesting especially when she maintains her positive vibe.

    I bet there was plenty of conflict but the lack of Batman esq issues automatically turned people off form her. No angstyness? A healthy stable view of life? A hero winning most of the time without having too many problems? boring, totally marry sue. (Once again this is all perception as I've yet to read Perezes work. I was planning on reading Rukas material first and work my way to him next)

    I'm guessing thats why so many dismissed the old WW and like the new WW. and vice versa, since it was that entirely positive vibe that people enjoyed before.

    But from what i can tell from here Diana's spirit has been preserved and she seems to be the same heroine she was before save for minor quirks, mostly having to do with her status quo. Unless theres more to it than that.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    If she is the same perfect WW why wouldn't people still dislike her?
    It's a fair question. I'm not someone who disliked the character before--I always liked her, although I haven't been as gripped by any of the stories told about her since I first read Marston's. I would agree with you that Azz's take on the character is distinct from Perez's; for one thing, she is a bit more impulsive, especialy when actin out of compassion. Maybe she is a bit more glad of a good fight; I see that, at least, in her sparring with Aleka in 2. In this way, and perhaps in her sense of humor, she may be a bit more like Marston's Wonder Woman than Perez's. She's also had more experience of feeling like a misfit than previous versions of the character, and perhaps, despite her idealism, she's had a bit more experience of doubt (as seen in issues 5 and 7).

    I think Azzarello's and Perez's's versions of the character have a common core, though: they are both exceptionally loving, idealistic and brave. This Wonder Woman MAY not have received a special blessing from Aphrodite (though I wouldn't be surprised if she has received some kind of patronage form that goddess, just as she has from Ares) but she does possess the ability to love everyone. Like Perez's version, Azzarello's would prefer resolution to a bloody fight; we see this, for instance, in 12, when though Siracca is apparently trying to kill her, Diana would rather embrace her sister than fight her. When she does uses force--against the centaurs, shades in hell, Apollo or Artemis--it's to protect herself or others from violence, and it's in situations where reasoning doesn't seem to have been a viable option. (I mean, could she have reasoned with the centaurs or with Hell's minions?)

    Another attribute Azz's and Perz's verion of the character share is resilience. Both can take a lot of grief and turbulence and come up smiling. I don't see Azz's Wonder Woman as some kind of sad, solemn character; she's just had a limited amount to smile about lately. But even after losing her family, she's able to enjoy a day in London with Zola in 5; she's able to feel joy at reunion with Zola in 8; she's able to look forward in 12---even in the middle of a fight--to kissing Zola's baby; and she's clearly glad to have met and reconciled with her sister in 14. And obviously she's happy to have completed her quest at the beginning of 0.
    Last edited by slvn; 12-13-2012 at 09:15 PM.

  15. #15
    Yoda's true Master. Darth Twiggy's Avatar
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    Perez Wonder Woman seemed more cheerful, she seemed fore caring and loving towards everyone, She was very kind.
    Azarello WW is always trying to rush into a fight.
    Brian Azarello has publicly said he doesnt know anything about Wonder Woman and has never read anything about her.
    You can find this interview on youtube.
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