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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I'm just a little confused how come one character having their adventures erased is okay but another having theirs isn't. Superman can be rebooted twice but shortening Batman's adventures crosses a line? Its true some character after Crisis kept much of their history. And after Flashpoint, almost none did. But we saw after Crisis how those changes rippled out making things actually more unstable then we were led to believe. As I like to point out, they had to do more than a little universe tweaking that still didn't address everything. Part of the smartest thing I think they did this go around was keep problem characters like Donna Troy off the stage until they figure them out whereas before they were actually adding to the inconsistency of the universe each month.

    Like I've said, I saw (and see) Crisis as a very damaging event to my personal enjoyment of the DCU but apparently it managed to create something others could enjoy so don't understand why there's this grasping to the idea something good can't come out of something we dislike. Even I stayed with the post universe until it started to resemble a zombification of my old DCU.
    Well, obviously I disagree. For one thing, the amount of change is a factor IMO, though I'll confess the fact that I regarded both the pre-COIE Superman and Wonder Woman as more cardboard cutouts than characters may have a lot to do with why the changes to them didn't affect me.

    But mostly, from a purely personal POV: my real interest at DC was always the Golden Age characters and their legacies. That's what kept me reading, even when the JSA were in limbo and their appearances confined to flashbacks. Without the GA characters, and certain others who've also disappeared for the most part or had their histories erased, I just don't care about the DCU.

  2. #137
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    If it was up to me, the DCU would have been rebooted, with two years worth of epilogues and last adventures, maybe a title or two would kept following the younger generations of heroes, and there would be a brand new universe. Only one big difference with the new 52, it would try to follow as much of the original mythos as possible, pretty much like the New Frontier or the DCAU.
    I believe that the new 52 came about so fast due to outside influences. They had to fix the readership loses and fast. They had more time with CoIE. I've never been able to fault those behind CoIE because I think they did do it with love for what they were working with which is why so many of the mistakes were allowed. They loved so many of the characters that they couldn't have them not present even if that meant they had inconsistency around them. With the New 52, I still think they love the characters but the mandate seemed clearly to make the whole line sale over that love. Doesn't mean there weren't mistakes and some questionable choices. And I as surprised as anyone that I responded to the cold fact of finances over creator's love.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Well, obviously I disagree. For one thing, the amount of change is a factor IMO, though I'll confess the fact that I regarded both the pre-COIE Superman and Wonder Woman as more cardboard cutouts than characters may have a lot to do with why the changes to them didn't affect me.

    But mostly, from a purely personal POV: my real interest at DC was always the Golden Age characters and their legacies. That's what kept me reading, even when the JSA were in limbo and their appearances confined to flashbacks. Without the GA characters, and certain others who've also disappeared for the most part or had their histories erased, I just don't care about the DCU.
    I'm hopeful that we will see those characters again. I would prefer a time period closer to WWII for them. But I've always preferred the Golden Age characters in their full glory which means their own world where Superman appeared in 1938. That's why I'm not bothered by the loss of those characters when we're talking about the modern age since their time has long past. But I still think there's lots of story to explore for them. Maybe someday they will at least do it digitally. I mean, I am loving Earth 2 and its take on the duplicate world but there's the historical aspect of these heroes that deserves to be celebrated.

  3. #138
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I'm hopeful that we will see those characters again. I would prefer a time period closer to WWII for them. But I've always preferred the Golden Age characters in their full glory which means their own world where Superman appeared in 1938. That's why I'm not bothered by the loss of those characters when we're talking about the modern age since their time has long past. But I still think there's lots of story to explore for them. Maybe someday they will at least do it digitally. I mean, I am loving Earth 2 and its take on the duplicate world but there's the historical aspect of these heroes that deserves to be celebrated.
    R.I.P.:





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  4. #139
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    R.I.P.:





    Those don't belong together though since Squadron started when the old order was the norm and Young All-Stars is after it was ripped away. And I liked the Squadron much better :)

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I believe that the new 52 came about so fast due to outside influences. They had to fix the readership loses and fast. They had more time with CoIE. I've never been able to fault those behind CoIE because I think they did do it with love for what they were working with which is why so many of the mistakes were allowed. They loved so many of the characters that they couldn't have them not present even if that meant they had inconsistency around them. With the New 52, I still think they love the characters but the mandate seemed clearly to make the whole line sale over that love. Doesn't mean there weren't mistakes and some questionable choices. And I as surprised as anyone that I responded to the cold fact of finances over creator's love.



    I'm hopeful that we will see those characters again. I would prefer a time period closer to WWII for them. But I've always preferred the Golden Age characters in their full glory which means their own world where Superman appeared in 1938. That's why I'm not bothered by the loss of those characters when we're talking about the modern age since their time has long past. But I still think there's lots of story to explore for them. Maybe someday they will at least do it digitally. I mean, I am loving Earth 2 and its take on the duplicate world but there's the historical aspect of these heroes that deserves to be celebrated.
    Yes, I perfectly agree with most of what you said about the intention behind both COIE and FP. Giordano, Kahn and Berg were visionaries. and although I prefer the multiverse, it was interesting having a patchwork earth with all the heroes on it. The problems with Superman I blame on Byrne. While he created an interesting new version, he was too closed to the Binder elements, which proved to be some of the best aspects of the myth (Supergirl, color kryptonite, the phantom zone, kandor, etc.) and were eventually reintroduced.

    DiDio, if I get him right is two things, a business man and a soap opera writer. It's my belief that it's his belief that DC character are about two things, the properties (characters) and the drama. Which is not really wrong, but he forgets about the talent factor. He knows that we all love the collection of characters, but since he doesn't rely on talent, he thinks that the the only way to keep the fans interested is by keeping a rotation of about 15% of that collection missing and the rest on a constant quest to avenge or find them, like a soap opera. He just can't have the full set like Schwartz or Giordano did, he has to tease us with the likes of Wally, Ralph, Sue, Vic, Ted or Donna. That's his way. I'm not sure he actually loves the characters. He might, but in any hase that love would remind me of the love for music of that fat guy who produced all the boy bands during the late 90s. It look moere like he's exploiting DC instead of loving it. And yes, he has had some success, but one that pales in contrast with Giordano's (based on talent) or Schwarts (based on creating mythos and collections of characters).

    If you ask me, DC animated, specially Timm and Tucker, are showing a lot more passion an love for the DCU than DC Comics.

    If Timm or Cooke were tptb at DC, this would be a new golden age of comics. That list is actually more extended, Berg or Waid would be excellent choices as well. I think this is the reason they started messing with McDuffie's run. The guy was a good writer, but as editor or producer he was brilliant: I suspect they saw him as a menace and started to bully him. To be honest, I enjoyed his run at its lowest, with his big guns gone than Robinson's at its best. I still wanted to know more about Canary, Vixen, Zee, John and even his Firestorm (and I hate replacement legacies!).
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 12-19-2012 at 02:50 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    To me CoIE was more epic than Flashpoint . . . especially the lazy, tacked-on ending that reset the DC Universe in the last few pages. CoIE was a book that had dignity to it . . . Flashpoint was just a lame Wizard of Oz-like story that the writer seemed to be bored with even before the last issue.
    Exactly - 75+ years of DC history were wiped out essentially off-panel before issue 1.
    At least with COIE, you felt some thought had been put into it, and that the characters had at least some involvement in their fates.
    It introduced the new continuity by giving the old one a proper send-off.

    With FP, Didio, Lee and Harras just said "Screw you, old fans. Accept New Coke DC or leave."

  7. #142
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    In my personal opinion,yes. Mostly because it has given us more than just the regular superhero titles (Edge and Dark titles I'm looking at you)
    Also because it gives a fresh take on old characters.

  8. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by blopblopblop View Post
    Exactly - 75+ years of DC history were wiped out essentially off-panel before issue 1.
    At least with COIE, you felt some thought had been put into it, and that the characters had at least some involvement in their fates.
    It introduced the new continuity by giving the old one a proper send-off.

    With FP, Didio, Lee and Harras just said "Screw you, old fans. Accept New Coke DC or leave."
    Great point. I think COIE was flawed, but it was intended as an epic story to say good bye to about 30% of the DCU. FP was a lazyass mid finger to say goodbye to 90% of the old universe. FP doesn't even live up to the best of Johns. And I don't really blame him, I think he was just doing a fun story that got blown way out of proportion by the others.

    The potst-crisis universe was totally anti-cliactic. It survived a the great Final Crisis epic (not to mention Zero Hour, IC and Blackest Night)... just to die ´cuz Zoom wanted to kill Barry's mom and Glinda the good witch of the south decided to pop up and crap all over the place. The ending doesn't make sense and DC's explanation is "some witch came out of nowhere and did it".
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Those don't belong together though since Squadron started when the old order was the norm and Young All-Stars is after it was ripped away. And I liked the Squadron much better :)
    You're not wrong, but they kind of do belong together in the sense that what was begun with the Crisis -- the editorially-forced marginalizing of the Golden Age heroes -- came to a head with Last Days of the JSA and then the cancellation of Young All-Stars. Then a few years later, Zero Hour, for unneeded emphasis.

  10. #145
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    Absolutely, perhaps the best time ever to be a DC comics fan.

  11. #146
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    If you ask me, DC animated, specially Timm and Tucker, are showing a lot more passion an love for the DCU than DC Comics.

    If Timm or Cooke were tptb at DC, this would be a new golden age of comics. That list is actually more extended, Berg or Waid would be excellent choices as well. I think this is the reason they started messing with McDuffie's run. The guy was a good writer, but as editor or producer he was brilliant: I suspect they saw him as a menace and started to bully him. To be honest, I enjoyed his run at its lowest, with his big guns gone than Robinson's at its best. I still wanted to know more about Canary, Vixen, Zee, John and even his Firestorm (and I hate replacement legacies!).
    I've been around comic fans (and this applies to all fans) that eventually, they always turn against the people that made them fans to begin with. We always say its them that changed and never accept that its us.

    Quote Originally Posted by blopblopblop View Post
    Exactly - 75+ years of DC history were wiped out essentially off-panel before issue 1.
    At least with COIE, you felt some thought had been put into it, and that the characters had at least some involvement in their fates.
    It introduced the new continuity by giving the old one a proper send-off.

    With FP, Didio, Lee and Harras just said "Screw you, old fans. Accept New Coke DC or leave."
    Once again, I don't see how its 75 years of history when that history was already wiped before then. Sure, I agree that more went into CoIE than Flashpoint but still didn't keep post-Crisis from having suckage. Seems like wiping history is always going to suck. And it should. But that doesn't change the fact you read them and enjoyed them. Because they don't count in the current universe doesn't mean that much. Just like all of Batman's past didn't count after Crisis. Or in the Nolan movies. The only thing that the material should be graded on is if its currently enjoyable and not opposed because its not what something thinks it should be. I've a feeling if I was to do some research, I'd find a good many fans that don't like what's happened with Flashpoint wont sound so happy of what was happening pre-Flashpoint. I've a hard time believing these boards were full of happy people loving everything they saw come out of DC.

    As someone who read from DC pre and post-Crisis, I didn't care if they did take a whole year to get me ready for the new universe. I didn't like having to lose what I did and still feel as if it misled me at times. So they might as well said screw you fans here's the post-Crisis universe or leave.

  12. #147
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    You're not wrong, but they kind of do belong together in the sense that what was begun with the Crisis -- the editorially-forced marginalizing of the Golden Age heroes -- came to a head with Last Days of the JSA and then the cancellation of Young All-Stars. Then a few years later, Zero Hour, for unneeded emphasis.
    Don't forget, the JSA did return in 1992 in Armageddon: Inferno


    and had their brief ten issue series during 1992 and 1993


    before more of them were killed off in Zero Hour.
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  13. #148
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Clearly a case of let's kill them... aw, I like em, let's bring em back.... nah, let's kill em dead!

  14. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I've been around comic fans (and this applies to all fans) that eventually, they always turn against the people that made them fans to begin with. We always say its them that changed and never accept that its us.



    Once again, I don't see how its 75 years of history when that history was already wiped before then. Sure, I agree that more went into CoIE than Flashpoint but still didn't keep post-Crisis from having suckage. Seems like wiping history is always going to suck. And it should. But that doesn't change the fact you read them and enjoyed them. Because they don't count in the current universe doesn't mean that much. Just like all of Batman's past didn't count after Crisis. Or in the Nolan movies. The only thing that the material should be graded on is if its currently enjoyable and not opposed because its not what something thinks it should be. I've a feeling if I was to do some research, I'd find a good many fans that don't like what's happened with Flashpoint wont sound so happy of what was happening pre-Flashpoint. I've a hard time believing these boards were full of happy people loving everything they saw come out of DC.

    As someone who read from DC pre and post-Crisis, I didn't care if they did take a whole year to get me ready for the new universe. I didn't like having to lose what I did and still feel as if it misled me at times. So they might as well said screw you fans here's the post-Crisis universe or leave.
    What you replied to me doesn't apply. I was never a fan of DiDio or Johns. However, I have to admit, I entered in 1992 (getting 1989+ issues) and I hated that a number of elements of the Super Powers Collection era were missing. Supergirl was a thing instead of Clark's cousin, brainiac didn't have that cool robot look, firestorm was a weird thing and didn't appear in crossovers like Panic in the Sky, Flash, Clayface and Mirror Master were dead, no phantom Zone villains and so on. What made not care is that the stories were really good. And the more time passed the better that 1985-1992 era looked. At least the Charlton, Quality and Fawcett characters were in one single Earth.

    Batman's past counted after the Crisis, you might have meant Superman's.

    You're right, I didlike DiDio's DC in general, it idn't start with FP.

    CoIE provided something that FP didn't: epilogues. Batman and Swamp Thing barely changed, no epilogue needed. Superman changed a lot, he got the pest epilogue. Flash died in the most important story of the continuity. A very poetic death, since the multiverse started with him.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by blopblopblop View Post
    Exactly - 75+ years of DC history were wiped out essentially off-panel before issue 1.
    At least with COIE, you felt some thought had been put into it, and that the characters had at least some involvement in their fates.
    It introduced the new continuity by giving the old one a proper send-off.

    With FP, Didio, Lee and Harras just said "Screw you, old fans. Accept New Coke DC or leave."
    My feelings exactly. And I chose option two.

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