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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    Disagree. Superman got it bad in Flash point. Batman's the same, just condensed which annoys some fans. Green Lantern's relatively the same. Flash was just rebooted like Wonder Woman way back when. Wonder Woman hasn't had any noticeable timeline changes yet. Superman changed like he did post crisis. The Teen Titans were altered alot, but ironically (because they were a major force in preventing an all out reboot during COIE) they were floundering as a title for years. JSA's back on Earth 2, just with a different history, I'll call that a wash from being wiped out and then reinstated on the main earth. And Vertigo characters were implemented back into DC proper.

    I'd hardly call that drastic compared to COIE where: Superman was rebooted, Wonder Woman was rebooted, Green Lantern got a new origin, the JSA and Legion were wiped out, the multiverse was wiped out, Batman had his early history changed alot. In fact, I'd argue that Flash and the Teen Titans were the only characters that kept their old continuity for the most part.
    I think you're being too soft on post-FP Wonder Woman and the Flash. They are as changed as in post-Crisis. And it funny how you said that JSA is the same "just with a different history". JSA is the biggest change. CoIE just moved them from one Earth to the other, but their stories, same past adventures and even their uniforms were the same. Along with the Titans, they got perhapst the biggest change. And "a lot" when it comes to Batman, doesn't seem to mean a ot going by what you're claiming. His earliest case was the Chemical Syndicate, followed by Monk, Dr. Death and Strange, then the rest. Both Dick and Jason kept their adventures as Robin. All of that is change in FP.

    If you go one by one, hands down FP changes more than CoIE.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
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  2. #122
    Literate Sasquatch Cryptid's Avatar
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    The fact that we're all arguing the fine-points of continuity seems like a sure sign that things have fallen off since the 80s, when DC managed to invent a mainstream market for comics with a literary sensibility. Between the crassness of Before Watcmen and the gradual unraveling of the Vertigo imprint, it seems like the writing is on the wall. The New 52 is very ambitious within a very limited scope of creative activity; same goes for Marvel NOW.

  3. #123
    Veteran Member Lancerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    I think you're being too soft on post-FP Wonder Woman and the Flash. They are as changed as in post-Crisis. And it funny how you said that JSA is the same "just with a different history". JSA is the biggest change. CoIE just moved them from one Earth to the other, but their stories, same past adventures and even their uniforms were the same. Along with the Titans, they got perhapst the biggest change. And "a lot" when it comes to Batman, doesn't seem to mean a ot going by what you're claiming. His earliest case was the Chemical Syndicate, followed by Monk, Dr. Death and Strange, then the rest. Both Dick and Jason kept their adventures as Robin. All of that is change in FP.

    If you go one by one, hands down FP changes more than CoIE.
    Wonder Woman didn't change much at all. The biggest change being that her debut in mans world was in the first JLA arc. Aside from that not much difference. I said Flash just got rebooted to a time early in his career pre dating Iris or meeting Wally.

    The JSA switching Earth's in COIE WAS a big deal. They no longer had the trinity in there ranks (well until they pulled the Wonder Woman retcon), there leader no longer existed. And they were weirdly condensed in the timeline. Either way both times they got screwed over. Atleast now they aren't pretending.

    Batman's exactly the same. I doubt there is a single story that has been directly contradicted by FP except for the silly Tim Drake was really calling himself Red Robin the whole time.

    If you go one for one
    Superman- got rebooted in both instance
    Batman- got rebooted mildly in Crisis (Year One, The Long Haloween, Jason's origin). In FP it's largely carrying on from the same history with a few minor tweaks.
    Wonder Woman- completely rebooted by crisis, not really in FP. The biggest change in FP is her initial intro into the JLA
    Green Lantern- got a new origin in Crisis, in FP he is pretty much the same character
    Flash- stayed pretty consistent in crisis, was rebooted to early adventures in FP.
    JSA- got a universe swap and a large retooling of their history in Crisis, got completely rebooted in FP
    Justice League- got changed both times.
    Legion of Superheroes- I believe the legion was relegated to pocket universe status immediatly after Crisis, Idk whats been going on with them post FP
    Teen Titans- basically stayed the same in Crisis (which was why it wasn't a full scale reboot), then got rebooted in FP.

    It's pretty even. Close enough that I wouldn't call Flashpoint a "drastic" change compared to COIE.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The JSA switching Earth's in COIE WAS a big deal. They no longer had the trinity in there ranks (well until they pulled the Wonder Woman retcon), there leader no longer existed. And they were weirdly condensed in the timeline. Either way both times they got screwed over. Atleast now they aren't pretending.
    "Their leader" was Hawkman. The trinity were actually not all that important to the JSA in comparison with the other members (Superman and Batman only ever worked with them twice in the Golden Age, and Wonder Woman was their secretary) so the loss of them didn't impact that much on JSA history. I have no idea what you mean by "weirdly condensed in the timeline", either. They'd been around for forty five years.
    Justice League- got changed both times
    The only real change to the JLA's history was that Black Canary replaced Wonder Woman as a founding member.
    Legion of Superheroes- I believe the legion was relegated to pocket universe status immediatly after Crisis, Idk whats been going on with them post FP
    You believe wrong. The Legion were still in the 30th Century of the main Earth; it was Superboy who turned out to be from a pocket universe.
    Teen Titans- basically stayed the same in Crisis (which was why it wasn't a full scale reboot), then got rebooted in FP.

    It's pretty even. Close enough that I wouldn't call Flashpoint a "drastic" change compared to COIE.
    No. Sorry, but no. Aside from the mistaken assumptions I've just addressed, what about all the other characters and titles which got through COIE totally unchanged? What about Blue Devil, or Firestorm, or the Outsiders, or Hawkman? Now, more than ever, I can only assume you weren't actually reading DC at the time and don't really understand what happened.
    Last edited by tony ingram; 12-18-2012 at 08:10 AM.

  5. #125
    Veteran Member Lancerman's Avatar
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    Sorry I just disagree. There were ALOT of changes and compromises to make the JSA work on Earth 2. Like I said I wasn't sure about the Legion so thats ONE thing. And even then yeah compromise to make it work, since they had a fake Superboy.

    And it doesn't change that Batman (major part of DCU), Wonder Woman (major part of DCU) and Green Lantern (major part of DCU) went virtually unchanged. All three had significant changes from COIE. Superman was radically altered both times. Flash again was changed in FP and not in COIE.

    Its not a drastic change. Unless you know, you seriously believe a character like Blue Devil is on par in the universe with any of the major players like Batman or Wonder Woman.

  6. #126
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Depends on what you're looking for.

    None of my favorite characters are appearing anywhere, and the characters I'd be willing to give a shot to haven't been announced for anything either.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    Sorry I just disagree. There were ALOT of changes and compromises to make the JSA work on Earth 2.
    Name six.
    Like I said I wasn't sure about the Legion so thats ONE thing. And even then yeah compromise to make it work, since they had a fake Superboy.

    And it doesn't change that Batman (major part of DCU), Wonder Woman (major part of DCU) and Green Lantern (major part of DCU) went virtually unchanged. All three had significant changes from COIE. Superman was radically altered both times. Flash again was changed in FP and not in COIE.
    In fact, Batman wasn't changed at all by COIE. There was a 'soft reboot' of certain elements of his continuity a few months later, but it basically amounted to changing Jason Todd's origin and quietly erasing Julia Pennyworth and the Batman/Catwoman relationship.

    Its not a drastic change. Unless you know, you seriously believe a character like Blue Devil is on par in the universe with any of the major players like Batman or Wonder Woman.
    Well, that's very much a matter of personal perspective. At the time, I was heavily invested in the JSA and Infinity Inc, the All-Star Squadron, the Titans, the LSH, Blue Devil, Firestorm, GL and the Warlord, amongst others, but I couldn't have cared less about Superman or Wonder Woman. So yes, from my POV, they were.

  8. #128
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    No, but it's not terrible either. They royally screwed some old favorite characters and others are missing and with little hope to come back, but there are a bunch of good titles, good ideas and characters some very well written that were being neglected or didn't exist before.

  9. #129
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    Batman's exactly the same. I doubt there is a single story that has been directly contradicted by FP except for the silly Tim Drake was really calling himself Red Robin the whole time.
    Plus any story involving Cassandra or Stephanie as Batgirl; the death of Tim's parents; Barbara Gordon as Oracle; Jim Gordon's second marriage; Dick's involvement with any of the Teen Titans; are the Outsiders still involved anymore?; Catwoman knowing Bruce's identity; . . .
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  10. #130
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    See, this is what I was talking about. It sounds like we all had a death in our family and people are telling each other that it hurts themselves worse than it could possibly hurt someone else. For me, Crisis seemed like the death of a old friend whereas Flashpoint introduced me to a new one who reminds me of the things I liked about my old friend. Doesn't mean I don't miss my old friend but I enjoy spending time with my new one. At least neither was like that psycho I ran into at my old friend's funeral

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    Sorry I just disagree. There were ALOT of changes and compromises to make the JSA work on Earth 2. Like I said I wasn't sure about the Legion so thats ONE thing. And even then yeah compromise to make it work, since they had a fake Superboy.

    And it doesn't change that Batman (major part of DCU), Wonder Woman (major part of DCU) and Green Lantern (major part of DCU) went virtually unchanged. All three had significant changes from COIE. Superman was radically altered both times. Flash again was changed in FP and not in COIE.

    Its not a drastic change. Unless you know, you seriously believe a character like Blue Devil is on par in the universe with any of the major players like Batman or Wonder Woman.
    Nobody is denying that CoIE produced a lot of changes. However, according to your logic, condensing Batman's story in 5 years is no change... Read Last Rites or Batman #700, how can all of that happen in 5 years. How can the adventures of the 3 Robins happen in 5 years? It's pure Bs. Your Wonder Woman argument is even worse, Tevor is back and not in a way that fits any previous version. Same with Cheetah or the gods. Let's see Flash; is that his first fight vs. Catain Cold?

    Let's keep track:

    Batman, and the Bat-family
    Post-CoIE: None really, Year One didn't make any kind of minor revision that wasn't the usual through out the silver and even the golden ages. Moore established pretty soon that Bat-mite and Batwoman were part of Batman's past. Batman was not a founding member of the JLA until the 00s retcon. Recent adventures kept.
    Post- FP: Tim was always Red Robin, each robin only lasted about a year. All past uniforms (but Catwoman's latest) erased.

    Wonder Woman
    Post-CoIE: New story
    Post- FP: New story. Steve Trevor recovered in a new role. All past uniforms erased.

    Superman
    Post-CoIE: New story.
    Post- FP: New story. All past uniforms erased.

    Flash, Kid Flash, Elongated Man
    Post-CoIE: All kept down to details.
    Post- FP: All erased and rebooted. The Allens changed (might still be a tie-travel thing, though). Wally, Ralph, Myles missing. All past uniforms erased.

    JLA
    Post-CoIE: 3 members retconned out, one retconned in. All incarnations kept, all enemies and their stories kept.
    Post- FP: Martian Manhunter changed for Cyborg, new origin story, no incaranations kept. Elongated Man, Hawkwoman and Red Tornado might have never been members. All adventures erased. All past uniforms erased.

    JLI
    Post-CoIE: N/A
    Post- FP: 70% of their most distinctive members erased (Maxwell, Blue Beetle, Elongated Man, Dmitri, Martian Manhunter, Wally, Crimson Fox, Catherine, Power Girl, Canary, Mr. Miracle, Sue, L-Ron, Oberon, Kilowog, Captain Atom) , all adventures erased. All past uniforms (but Ice's latest) erased.

    JSA
    Post-CoIE: All heroes and adventures but the trinity's kept, even in their original historical setting.
    Post- FP: Everything erased, trinity restored, historical setting lost. Marriages and relationships destroyed. All past uniforms erased.

    Teen Titans
    Post-CoIE: All kept, same adventures.
    Post- FP: None of it was kept. Wally, Donna and Garth missing.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  12. #132
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Batman, and the Bat-family
    Post-CoIE: None really, Year One didn't make any kind of minor revision that wasn't the usual through out the silver and even the golden ages. Moore established pretty soon that Bat-mite and Batwoman were part of Batman's past. Batman was not a founding member of the JLA until the 00s retcon. Recent adventures kept.
    Post- FP: Tim was always Red Robin, each robin only lasted about a year. All past uniforms (but Catwoman's latest) erased.
    But don't forget, from pre- to post-CoIE:
    * Jason's origin was changed immensely (from being a Dick-clone with a circus background to being a street tough who stole the tires off the Batmobile)
    * Babs changed from being Jim Gordon's biological daughter to being his niece/adopted daughter after his brother and sister-in-law were killed in a car accident (we won't go into the possibilty that Jim may have been Babs' biological father by shtupping his sister-in-law while Jim was also married)
    * didn't Dick lose the inspiration for his Nightwing identity of Superman's heroic identity (with Jimmy Olsen as Flamebird) when Kal-El was fighting crime in the bottle city of Kandor?
    * Selina suddenly gained her prostitution background courtesy of Frank Miller in Batman Year One
    (and I'm sure there are other drastic changes I'm not thinking of off the top of my head)
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  13. #133

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    But that didn't erase adventures, which is my main point.

    That's not really "drastic" at all (and keep in mind that Catwan's past wasn't clear). Not compared with the DCnU. I'm sure that you didn't meant to call the Nightwing thing "significant" (if what you said actually applies).
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  14. #134
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    But that didn't erase adventures, which is my main point.
    I'm just a little confused how come one character having their adventures erased is okay but another having theirs isn't. Superman can be rebooted twice but shortening Batman's adventures crosses a line? Its true some character after Crisis kept much of their history. And after Flashpoint, almost none did. But we saw after Crisis how those changes rippled out making things actually more unstable then we were led to believe. As I like to point out, they had to do more than a little universe tweaking that still didn't address everything. Part of the smartest thing I think they did this go around was keep problem characters like Donna Troy off the stage until they figure them out whereas before they were actually adding to the inconsistency of the universe each month.

    Like I've said, I saw (and see) Crisis as a very damaging event to my personal enjoyment of the DCU but apparently it managed to create something others could enjoy so don't understand why there's this grasping to the idea something good can't come out of something we dislike. Even I stayed with the post universe until it started to resemble a zombification of my old DCU.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I'm just a little confused how come one character having their adventures erased is okay but another having theirs isn't. Superman can be rebooted twice but shortening Batman's adventures crosses a line? Its true some character after Crisis kept much of their history. And after Flashpoint, almost none did. But we saw after Crisis how those changes rippled out making things actually more unstable then we were led to believe. As I like to point out, they had to do more than a little universe tweaking that still didn't address everything. Part of the smartest thing I think they did this go around was keep problem characters like Donna Troy off the stage until they figure them out whereas before they were actually adding to the inconsistency of the universe each month.

    Like I've said, I saw (and see) Crisis as a very damaging event to my personal enjoyment of the DCU but apparently it managed to create something others could enjoy so don't understand why there's this grasping to the idea something good can't come out of something we dislike. Even I stayed with the post universe until it started to resemble a zombification of my old DCU.
    It's not really "ok". It's "at least they didn't erase Batman's adventures as well" or "at least Superman kept looking the same".

    Nobody is saying that Superman being rebooted is ok, you have to discern between your own concerns and what people are saying.

    What CoIE tried to do was folding all the multiverse into a single one, keeping most of the characters and stories. Only the conflicting ones with exact versions on different Earths got a lot of erased. Incidentally, WW and Superman belong to that category.

    I'm not even against full reboots or new universes, I just don't like the new 52 or think that CoIE belongs to that category.

    If it was up to me, the DCU would have been rebooted, with two years worth of epilogues and last adventures, maybe a title or two would kept following the younger generations of heroes, and there would be a brand new universe. Only one big difference with the new 52, it would try to follow as much of the original mythos as possible, pretty much like the New Frontier or the DCAU.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

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