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  1. #166
    Senior Member NinjaMic's Avatar
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    tl;dr

    You didn't like the book? Fine. But for God's sake shut up about it

  2. #167
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    No, I haven't.

    However, the main theme here is how these kids survive this, not how they die
    I have to call BS in this between the preview and the first issue the theme as been slapstick death and splatter respectively, They have hyped the death angle from the start and the first issue at least follows the hype
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  3. #168
    Curiosity Seaker Majin Gojira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    I'm not going to outline what I said worked for me again because I've already done so.
    You said it worked for you, I just wanted to delve deeper in it.

    You haven't actually objectively explained (to me) what YOU found wrong with the book (that being said, I question your objectivity on this because you've been critical of the book's premise before it was even released). I am still curious to know exactly what you found wrong with the book.
    I've explained it so many times I'm growing hoarse with it. But once more shouldn't hurt too badly.

    1. I found the pacing lacking. The flash forward in particular I felt, while being a nice hook, was rather wasteful of both time/pages and setup. This is especially evident because the 'rules of the game' haven't even been established yet beyond the core premise. It's like going into a game of football with only being told "Bring the ball to the opposing side of the field to score points." A lack of reason behind it can be intriguing, but combined with everything else we don't know it just shows more bad pacing.
    2. Arcade's Presentation - I can see what they were going for in this, Arcade the showman, but in all honesty, it was rather dull. On paper, rising out of lava in a sphere of light sounds cool, but the angles chosen for it and muted colors work against it. He needed to 'pop' from the pages a lot more.
    3. Redundancy - Repeatedly trying to set Arcade up as a BIG DEAL THREAT I felt undermined the overall presentation.
    4. Out of Character behavior on the part of both Hazmat and Mettle. That happens a lot when a minor character goes to a new series, but for something that is supposed to be character driven, that is a massive detriment. (The out of character bits being disregard for life on Mettle's part and getting the source of Hazmat's anger and angst wrong, as well as forgetting her running cusses gag).
    5. Poor character establishment and focus - Telling the story from a single perspective does not preclude using a glance or single line to establish the others. Many characters barely got to show up in the first issue and the solution to that is simplicity itself. a 2 by 8 segment of close ups to each of their faces as they react to the information of game. It also has a feeling of sapped competency, which is an annoying thing to have to deal with. We do get some nice time with Hazmat, Arcade and Mettle (roughly) and the Academy kids at least get one line of dialogue before things go to hell, but honestly, only about 2/3rds of the cast get to do anything.
    6. Undermined Nobility - From what I see, Hopeless attempted to create a noble sacrifice for Mettle, but the lines before it undermine that heavily due to his loss of morals before that. Edit to add: in the end, it simply comes off partially selfish and partially suicidal.
    7. A Dull Kill - I quote Cicero for this one

    What pleasure can there be for a civilized man when either some powerless man is ripped to shreds by a powerful beast or some magnificent animal is transfixed by a spear. But if this show must be viewed, we saw nothing new
    8. Fridging in any form is rather lazy writing, and this is a classic Fridging. When a character dies, it should be about them just as much as it should be the people that care about them. Here, it was only the people (or person) who cared about him.

    There are meta-narrative reasons as well, which can be summed up as "needlessly sacrificing the future to revitalize a withered flower from the past", but those are more subjective than objective.
    Last edited by Majin Gojira; 12-17-2012 at 10:08 AM.
    "Curse you, Occam's Razor! You have betrayed me!"

    Reviewing is a lot like paleontology: the evidence is there, but no one seems to agree on it.

  4. #169
    New Member gveret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaMic View Post
    tl;dr

    You didn't like the book? Fine. But for God's sake shut up about it
    Nooo! This is really fun. Don't spoil our over-analytic bullshit with your accurate concision!

  5. #170
    Curiosity Seaker Majin Gojira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gveret View Post
    Nope, haven't read Understanding Comics or taken fine arts classes. Yes, there are evolutionary reasons for us to notice the color red, and there are many psychological and cultural reasons for liking/enjoying/appreciating/being affected by certain aspects of art. But I think what this comes down to is a more fundamental disagreement on what constitutes objectiveness. I think the phrase "objective opinion" is an oxymoron. You don't. That's pretty much it.
    It's really, really hard to form a response to that when you knowingly admit to ignorance but push forward anyway without coming off as either condescending or insulting. All I ask is that you educate yourself on a subject when you wish to talk about it for your own sake. I think you got a good eye for things, so a foundation can only help support it.

    You didn't like the book? Fine. But for God's sake shut up about it
    People keep asking me to repeat myself! Even I'm growing hoarse with it!
    "Curse you, Occam's Razor! You have betrayed me!"

    Reviewing is a lot like paleontology: the evidence is there, but no one seems to agree on it.

  6. #171
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    I agree that Hopeless might have gotten a bit too excited with his initial "people will DIEEEEE!!" statements.

    However, he's subsequently gone on the record to explain what the book will be like.
    In which case was he being straight with us, the first when there was no criticism or the second when there was beginning to be some blow-back? One case or the other was spin, we just disagree over which it was. I don't think the Premise can be handled in a big 2 22 page comic book without stripping it down to a matter of who will get killed in what horrible way in each issue. It's like Marvel trying to rip off "Maus", simply something this form of the media can't be expected to handle
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  7. #172
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaMic View Post
    tl;dr

    You didn't like the book? Fine. But for God's sake shut up about it
    Why, becasue you tell us to?
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  8. #173
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin Gojira View Post
    You said it worked for you, I just wanted to delve deeper in it.



    I've explained it so many times I'm growing hoarse with it. But once more shouldn't hurt too badly.

    1. I found the pacing lacking. The flash forward in particular I felt, while being a nice hook, was rather wasteful of both time/pages and setup. This is especially evident because the 'rules of the game' haven't even been established yet beyond the core premise. It's like going into a game of football with only being told "Bring the ball to the opposing side of the field to score points." A lack of reason behind it can be intriguing, but combined with everything else we don't know it just shows more bad pacing.
    2. Arcade's Presentation - I can see what they were going for in this, Arcade the showman, but in all honesty, it was rather dull. On paper, rising out of lava in a sphere of light sounds cool, but the angles chosen for it and muted colors work against it. He needed to 'pop' from the pages a lot more.
    3. Redundancy - Repeatedly trying to set Arcade up as a BIG DEAL THREAT I felt undermined the overall presentation.
    4. Out of Character behavior on the part of both Hazmat and Mettle. That happens a lot when a minor character goes to a new series, but for something that is supposed to be character driven, that is a massive detriment. (The out of character bits being disregard for life on Mettle's part and getting the source of Hazmat's anger and angst wrong, as well as forgetting her running cusses gag).
    5. Poor character establishment and focus - Telling the story from a single perspective does not preclude using a glance or single line to establish the others. Many characters barely got to show up in the first issue and the solution to that is simplicity itself. a 2 by 8 segment of close ups to each of their faces as they react to the information of game. It also has a feeling of sapped competency, which is an annoying thing to have to deal with. We do get some nice time with Hazmat, Arcade and Mettle (roughly) and the Academy kids at least get one line of dialogue before things go to hell, but honestly, only about 2/3rds of the cast get to do anything.
    6. Undermined Nobility - From what I see, Hopeless attempted to create a noble sacrifice for Mettle, but the lines before it undermine that heavily due to his loss of morals before that.
    7. A Dull Kill - I quote Cicero for this one



    There are meta-narrative reasons as well, which can be summed up as "needlessly sacrificing the future to revitalize a withered flower from the past", but those are more subjective than objective.
    Well and that's the thing about opinions, we all look at things differently. Some of the things you hate in the book are actually some of the things that I actually appreciated in it.

    I don't believe that focusing on other cast members is necessary at this point. This isnt a superhero team book, so that would been unwieldy story telling given the size of the cast and getting one or two lines from the other cast members would have simply been redundant as it would not have significantly improved the story Hopeless is telling here.

    The focus on Arcade is extremely important as it shows that Arcade is no longer a joke and is now a legitimate threat. The battle between him and the kids was excellently depicted and very exciting.

    The only issue I had with the characterization was Mettle saying he doesn't care about anyone else. It seemed a little selfish but that's what love does. We sometimes go to pretty ridiculous extremes for love.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  9. #174
    Senior Member NinjaMic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Why, becasue you tell us to?
    Yes!

    That's exactly it!

  10. #175
    New Member gveret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin Gojira View Post
    It's really, really hard to form a response to that when you knowingly admit to ignorance but push forward anyway without coming off as either condescending or insulting. All I ask is that you educate yourself on a subject when you wish to talk about it for your own sake. I think you got a good eye for things, so a foundation can only help support it.
    I'm sorry, but I don't see myself as ignorant in this matter just because I haven't taken the same college classes as you. I don't think you need qualifications to have a conversation about art or the nature of objectivity, and while I think it's admirable that you are able to provide quotations and references to back up your opinion, you'll forgive me if I prefer to let mine be judged on its own merits or deficiencies.

    EDIT: Whoops, how could I forget? I also have to call ad hominem here.
    Last edited by gveret; 12-17-2012 at 10:16 AM.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaMic View Post
    Yes!

    That's exactly it!
    I'm just glad Magic Gorgina keeps posting about Avengers Arena. He has more post than anyone in EVERY Arena thread! He really wants the book to be talked about I guess and to spread his interest in what's happening!

  12. #177
    Curiosity Seaker Majin Gojira's Avatar
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    Looks like I added one in the interrum while you were responding. Sorry. it's a long list of reasons and all. Forgot one of the bigger ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    I don't believe that focusing on other cast members is necessary at this point. This isnt a superhero team book, so that would been unwieldy story telling given the size of the cast and getting one or two lines from the other cast members would have simply been redundant as it would not have significantly improved the story Hopeless is telling here.
    Again, I already brought up two non-direct super hero examples that countermand your point and explained how easily it could have been done without redundancy. You're free to disagree, but don't use reasons I already accounted for and explained away.

    The focus on Arcade is extremely important as it shows that Arcade is no longer a joke and is now a legitimate threat. The battle between him and the kids was excellently depicted and very exciting.
    Indeed the fight was, and that was all that was needed. It accomplished the "no longer a joke" thing easily enough on its own. Everything else was superfluous repetition.

    The only issue I had with the characterization was Mettle saying he doesn't care about anyone else. It seemed a little selfish but that's what love does. We sometimes go to pretty ridiculous extremes for love.
    That's certainly no-prize worthy

    It would have been better if he was called out on it.
    "Curse you, Occam's Razor! You have betrayed me!"

    Reviewing is a lot like paleontology: the evidence is there, but no one seems to agree on it.

  13. #178
    Curiosity Seaker Majin Gojira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gveret View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't see myself as ignorant in this matter just because I haven't taken the same college classes as you. I don't think you need qualifications to have a conversation about art or the nature of objectivity, and while I think it's admirable that you are able to provide quotations and references to back up your opinion, you'll forgive me if I prefer to let mine be judged on its own merits or deficiencies.
    Indeed, and that is why I'm actually here repeatedly pointing out Arena's flaws. A discerning observer should be able to see through the din of it all pretty well. Whether that din is my own writing style or the argument itself is up to interpretation

    EDIT: Whoops, how could I forget? I also have to call ad hominem here.
    Sure, you can 'call' it, but again it would be in ignorance of how it is actually used. I tried to avoid it as best I can as well, but the fact of the matter is you copped to ignorance and blindly moved forward anyway. That doesn't look good no matter how you slice it. It's like attempting home plumbing only after seeing it done on TV once. In a sketch comedy show.
    "Curse you, Occam's Razor! You have betrayed me!"

    Reviewing is a lot like paleontology: the evidence is there, but no one seems to agree on it.

  14. #179
    New Member gveret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin Gojira View Post
    Indeed, and that is why I'm actually here repeatedly pointing out Arena's flaws. A discerning observer should be able to see through the din of it all pretty well. Whether that din is my own writing style or the argument itself is up to interpretation
    I haven't in fact once said that I don't believe Arena has flaws. It has many. I explained why I enjoyed it, and the reason has nothing to do with intellectualism.


    Sure, you can 'call' it, but again it would be in ignorance of how it is actually used. I tried to avoid it as best I can as well, but the fact of the matter is you copped to ignorance and blindly moved forward anyway. That doesn't look good no matter how you slice it.
    You've addressed my failure to meet your arbitrary qualifications of what constitutes someone who has any idea what she's talking about, instead of addressing the argument made. That's ad hominem, my friend.

    It's like attempting home plumbing only after seeing it done on TV once. In a sketch comedy show.
    And that's false equivalence.

  15. #180
    Curiosity Seaker Majin Gojira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gveret View Post
    I haven't in fact once said that I don't believe Arena has flaws. It has many. I explained why I enjoyed it, and the reason has nothing to do with intellectualism.
    That was a joke, son. I was pokin' light at the thing. Sorry, my humor button isn't working well today.

    You've addressed my failure to meet your arbitrary qualifications of what constitutes someone who has any idea what she's talking about, instead of addressing the argument made. That's ad hominem, my friend.
    Frankly, I found:

    But I think what this comes down to is a more fundamental disagreement on what constitutes objectiveness. I think the phrase "objective opinion" is an oxymoron. You don't. That's pretty much it.
    So bad that I didn't even wish to address it in casual dismissal. The lack of education was far more important to comment on and it was not intended as an insult. I even tried to encourage you to seek out education in the subject!

    But if I must address it, I should definitely clarify it with "More objective opinion" or "determine the objective quality off a work of art beyond personal subjective opinion".

    And that's false equivalence.
    Actually it's comedic exaggeration, but the point of moving ahead blindly is still a detriment to your position overall.
    "Curse you, Occam's Razor! You have betrayed me!"

    Reviewing is a lot like paleontology: the evidence is there, but no one seems to agree on it.

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