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  1. #466
    for the lulz 7thangel's Avatar
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    against my better judgement in respects to entering this thread
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow knight View Post
    Monica Rambeau - Of all the people you listed she's by far one of the greatest waste of space in existence in marvel comics. Lets look at some facts, they kill the original Cap Marvell to create her and give her his name. She changes her name to Pulsar someone else takes the name, she changes her name to Photon someone takes the name. To add insult to injury her original name is give to a white female.
    where are you getting this? he wasn't killed in order to create her and the name was to keep the ownership, the main reason why he lasted as long despite his lack of success, to maintain the copyright. glennsim already mentioned what motivated Starlin
    Last edited by 7thangel; 12-15-2012 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    How are they screwing him? They own the rights, they can do the work and Moore will get the money he deserves if he wants it.
    Do you think every creator enjoyed the changes Moore did to their characters?
    The characters Moore altered were created as work for hire. The Watchmen contract was not supposed to be work for hire. The rights should have reverted to Moore and Gibbons. DC screwed them.
    They changed Earths. They were no longer the main heroes or super-team. Their story was changed to fit the current Earth (especially with Alan Scott and Jay Garrick). They were put on limbo for years.
    If you think they were unchanged you are lying to yourself. You can simply admit you were not against those changes because you liked them.
    Irrelevant. Their continuity was unbroken. And for months after the Crisis, the characters were still referencing Earth Two and the fact that it and some of its inhabitants were lost. They were the same characters.

  3. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    The characters Moore altered were created as work for hire. The Watchmen contract was not supposed to be work for hire. The rights should have reverted to Moore and Gibbons. DC screwed them.
    The rights should have reverted to Moore and Gibbons one year after DC stopped publishing Watchmen. DC hasn't stoped publishing Watchmen, a right they have. Therefore they have as much rights to publish Before Watchmen as Moore had to alter the character he altered. So, Moore and Gibbons weren't screwed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Irrelevant. Their continuity was unbroken. And for months after the Crisis, the characters were still referencing Earth Two and the fact that it and some of its inhabitants were lost. They were the same characters.
    Their continuity was massively changed over the years to accomodate their new home. You're going to deny this?

  4. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    The rights should have reverted to Moore and Gibbons one year after DC stopped publishing Watchmen. DC hasn't stoped publishing Watchmen, a right they have. Therefore they have as much rights to publish Before Watchmen as Moore had to alter the character he altered. So, Moore and Gibbons weren't screwed.
    Yes, they were. Moore and Gibbons signed that contract in good faith in the wholly reasonable expectation that the book would go out of print within a reasonable length of time, as every past DC publication had. DC kept it in print indefinitely, in order to retain the rights. That might be perfectly legal, but it is not in the spirit of the original contract.

    Their continuity was massively changed over the years to accomodate their new home. You're going to deny this?
    Yes, I am. What, in your opinion, were these "massive" changes? Pretty much everything that had previously happened to them on Earth Two had happened to them on New Earth, with the exception of the absence of certain characters they had sometimes interacted with, like Kal-L. And to begin with, at least, they still remembered those characters.

  5. #470
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    The rights should have reverted to Moore and Gibbons one year after DC stopped publishing Watchmen. DC hasn't stoped publishing Watchmen, a right they have. Therefore they have as much rights to publish Before Watchmen as Moore had to alter the character he altered. So, Moore and Gibbons weren't screwed
    Not necessarily taking a side one way or the other in this, but I think it relevant to say that being screwed over by another entity is not necessarily a legal issue, but a moral/ethical one.

    For a city to take your home from you to build a highway might be legal, but it might still be an example of someone being screwed over.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  6. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Yes, they were. Moore and Gibbons signed that contract in good faith in the wholly reasonable expectation that the book would go out of print within a reasonable length of time, as every past DC publication had. DC kept it in print indefinitely, in order to retain the rights. That might be perfectly legal, but it is not in the spirit of the original contract.
    If you sign a contract knowing that something can happen you can't consider yourself screwed if it ends up happening. If you sign a prenup and then get nothing when you got divorced, you can't really say you were screwed. We can debate that DC would be doing the right thing by giving the Watchmen rights to the creators, but we could say the same thing if they were to give the Aquaman rights back to Paul Norris family. It would be a nice thing to do, morally correct, but you can't really say they are screwing anyone by not doing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Yes, I am. What, in your opinion, were these "massive" changes? Pretty much everything that had previously happened to them on Earth Two had happened to them on New Earth, with the exception of the absence of certain characters they had sometimes interacted with, like Kal-L. And to begin with, at least, they still remembered those characters.
    There you go. I could give you more, but that pretty much proves me right.

  7. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Not necessarily taking a side one way or the other in this, but I think it relevant to say that being screwed over by another entity is not necessarily a legal issue, but a moral/ethical one.

    For a city to take your home from you to build a highway might be legal, but it might still be an example of someone being screwed over.
    If you knew the city might be interested in building the highway there when you bought the house, not really.
    If you told me Moore didn't knew or understand the part of the contract that stated that he would only get the rights back one year after DC decided to stop reprinting the book, he would've been screwed. But he was perfectly aware of what he was signing, he simply thought it wouldn't matter. And he was wrong. I am wrong a lot of time. Doesn't mean I'm being screwed by anyone else other than myself.

  8. #473
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    Oh, and I'm perfectly aware that I'm not going to win this discussion. Tony's never going to admit or agree that Moore wasn't screwed or that he think reboots are wrong simply because he personally doesn't like the changes made by the last one. I've read enough of his posts to know that. Just expressing my opinion.

  9. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    What is the functional difference between a white character being "morphed" (which isn't even a word that has shown up in this forum before so I don't really know what you mean) and a white character being replaced by a non-white character with the same super-name, with the original no longer being published? How is Jaime Reyes not an example of what we're talking about here?
    The big difference is that with Jaime Reyes, Ted Kord still existed (albeit dead). Ted could come back in flashbacks and resurrections or "faked" deaths. The new Alan Scott came about with the original versions never having existed in any form. There is no chance of return in continuity.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

  10. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    The big difference is that with Jaime Reyes, Ted Kord still existed (albeit dead). Ted could come back in flashbacks and resurrections or "faked" deaths. The new Alan Scott came about with the original versions never having existed in any form. There is no chance of return in continuity.
    *sigh*
    Alan Scott's ring was shown in the Stormwatch HQ.

    You people should really relax. Eventually the WWII JSA will be back. We were never told they didn't exist, simply that Superman was the first public hero. That's how things allways go.

  11. #476
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    OMG! How could I have missed that? It's like a JSA return all spelled out!

    Oh, wait, it's only an Easter Egg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    *sigh*
    Alan Scott's ring was shown in the Stormwatch HQ.

    You people should really relax. Eventually the WWII JSA will be back. We were never told they didn't exist, simply that Superman was the first public hero. That's how things allways go.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

  12. #477
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    The big difference is that with Jaime Reyes, Ted Kord still existed (albeit dead). Ted could come back in flashbacks and resurrections or "faked" deaths. The new Alan Scott came about with the original versions never having existed in any form. There is no chance of return in continuity.
    I'd say in the world of comics, there's always a chance of anything. And again, functionally in both cases the old one is gone (in every way that matters) and the new one is the only one that exists. Technically a difference but functionally the same thing. The fact that Ted could show up in flashbacks doesn't mean much in the context of whether or not the change was a good idea or not.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  13. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    OMG! How could I have missed that? It's like a JSA return all spelled out!

    Oh, wait, it's only an Easter Egg.
    It's the Alan Scott ring in Earth Prime, in a scene that passed through the editorial.
    But if you prefer to simply ignore it and cry all day instead of waiting a few years before you see the old JSA back, go ahead. Whatever makes you happy.

  14. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    I'd say in the world of comics, there's always a chance of anything. And again, functionally in both cases the old one is gone (in every way that matters) and the new one is the only one that exists. Technically a difference but functionally the same thing. The fact that Ted could show up in flashbacks doesn't mean much in the context of whether or not the change was a good idea or not.
    I'm going to add that "matters" will differ greatly for different people. You are correct in just about everything, but the difference is in degrees of caring. Depending on the character and person, this difference could matter. Isn't anymore and never was.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

  15. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    It's the Alan Scott ring in Earth Prime, in a scene that passed through the editorial.
    But if you prefer to simply ignore it and cry all day instead of waiting a few years before you see the old JSA back, go ahead. Whatever makes you happy.
    Dude, go look for a fight elsewhere. You bore me.
    "Cant say it better than CaptCleghorn." - RolandJP

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