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  1. #391
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    I haven't bought a DC comic since September 2011.
    Which has nothing to do with how DC treats its creators, and everything to do with a grudge.
    Google is your friend. Have a question? Look it up. ∙ BlogSequential Salon

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Brady View Post
    Which has nothing to do with how DC treats its creators, and everything to do with a grudge.
    It's called having principles. Look it up.

  3. #393
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    It's called having principles. Look it up.
    I think he's asking you where those principles were for the 3 decades leading up to 2011.

    2011 seems like a really arbitrary start date to begin getting angry about it.

  4. #394
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    I think he's asking you where those principles were for the 3 decades leading up to 2011.

    2011 seems like a really arbitrary start date to begin getting angry about it.
    That's correct, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    It's called having principles. Look it up.
    I have plenty of principles. One of them is to not eat meat. Another is not to become irrationally attached to corporately owned characters created decades before my birth. Another is to not take condescending crap from people who think that obsolete ideas are the best ones.
    Last edited by Jeff Brady; 12-14-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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  5. #395
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    You're being asked to notice that while you accuse others of being against change, you are as big an agent of stagnation as anyone else. The "change" you are championing is a hollow illusion that actually helps prevent real change from ever occurring. Yay, team!
    Ah, I got it. I think I would have to defer to the concept of "scale" on that one.

    I mean, if I'm not willing to open a spay/neuter clinic in my home, I'm not allowed to scold someone for not having their dog spayed and having that result in a bunch of unwanted dogs? Can't I just address the issue at hand without having to change the world?

    Plus, lets look at that theory:

    1. It assumes that DC controls our behavior. And yet DC can't seem to get more people to buy Firestorm, no matter how long they keep publishing it. What's going on there?
    2. It assumes that creators want to always create new characters. But if that were the case, why do we have creators who want to write Batman? Are they wrong too?
    3. It assumes that DC could stay in business constantly rolling over characters like that.
    4. It assumes that there is a market for those new characters, which I thought we had already covered as being in doubt.

    There's some chicken-and-egg logic going on there that I fail to see the way you do. I think DC continues to publish Batman because people like Batman, and DC not publishing Batman would just result in DC going out of business and people reading more Spider-Man.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  6. #396
    Tai'shar Manetheren Jadenewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    I haven't bought a DC comic since September 2011.
    Are you still buying Marvel books? Wonder what Kirby or Gary Friedrich would have to say about that?
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadenewt View Post
    Are you still buying Marvel books? Wonder what Kirby or Gary Friedrich would have to say about that?
    The people currently running Marvel had nothing to do with the Kirby situation. And I don't put Friedrich in the same category at all. He didn't invent the name 'Ghost Rider', the blazing skull concept or much else associated with the character.

  8. #398
    Tai'shar Manetheren Jadenewt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    The people currently running Marvel had nothing to do with the Kirby situation. And I don't put Friedrich in the same category at all. He didn't invent the name 'Ghost Rider', the blazing skull concept or much else associated with the character.
    So you are now going to be the arbitrator of when a creator has rights and when he doesn't? Ahh.. it's those principles again I guess. So you didn't buy any Marvel during those years when the people that screwed Kirby were in charge?
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    The people currently running Marvel had nothing to do with the Kirby situation. And I don't put Friedrich in the same category at all. He didn't invent the name 'Ghost Rider', the blazing skull concept or much else associated with the character.
    Who did the people currently at DC screwed?

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    I think DC continues to publish Batman because people like Batman, and DC not publishing Batman would just result in DC going out of business and people reading more Spider-Man.
    People don't read Batman OR Spider-Man in numbers great enough to mean anything. Their true monetary value resides in other mediums. I could again make comparisons to other comic industries, but you go ahead and keep seeing things the way you like. Keep arguing with Tony about which niche of a niche audience is more meaningless.

  11. #401
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ticklefist View Post
    For the record, yeah, I'd prefer if Uncle Sam actually looked like Uncle Sam. Star, stripes, long goatee. Skin color isn't really key to the look.
    This is pretty much where Im at too. I normally dont give a damn about skin color. Wanna make Superman black? Sure, as long as he still has the S curl and strong jawline and is treated/written the same, whatever.

    But making Uncle Sam look nothing at all like the old propaganda posters? Isnt that the whole point of the character?

    I know that with DC's new five year timeline, having the physical embodiment of the spirit of America running around for two hundred years sort of goes against the grain. But at least let the guy look like Uncle Sam, and not some random Fed.

    I followed the Freedom Fighters when Gray and Politmi....however the hell you spell his name, took over and did their mini after Infinite Crisis. And I enjoyed what they did, right up to the reboot. Havent checked out the new guys yet but planned to do so down the road, but I have to say, if this suit with a badge is really Uncle Sam, my interest is sort of dimmed.

  12. #402
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    Who did the people currently at DC screwed?
    Mark Waid, Greg Rucka and Gail Simone.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

  13. #403

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    And is the X-Men you're talking about the one where they replaced the all-white characters with the American Indian and the African female?

    Yes, that was when they created brand new characters of various ethnic backgrounds, and it became a big hit....They didn't morph Jean Grey into an African chick, and they didn't change Bobby Drake into a Native American.


    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Being overly and relentlessly PC might piss people off. Good thing nobody is doing that. Increasing diversity in the only manner that is practical in the market is not being overly and relentlessly PC.
    It's not the only manner that's practical. Otherwise, the Hispanic version of Blue Beetle, the African-American version of Firestorm, and so on would have been huge hits.

    Kind of similar to a request I was given earlier in this thread, please name 5 titles in the past 5 years (Perhaps I'll give you leeway and say 10 years) which were huge hits where the previously white main characters were morphed into minorities.


    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    More relevant to this case, how many non-comicbook readers know there is a comicbook character named Uncle Sam. What possible name recognition could there be there? May some "OMG CONTROVERSY!!!! The spirit of America is a black guy! Lolz Outrageous!!!"
    Exactly. The name-recognition argument fails when the topic of this thread is about Uncle Sam being changed into a Black guy.


    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    How is name recognition not a valid argument. How many books does DC have with Bat in the title or are clearly Bat related? Add to that 4 Lantern and 4 Super Books. Its utter BS that name recognition does not matter. Batwing is only keeping a solo afloat because it has Bat on the title. Brand Recognition is important any argument to the contrary is absurd. Not even talking about Marvel half its books have Avengers or X-men in the title at this point.
    Brand recognition has significance when it's connected to something as popular as Batman or the X-Men, but it becomes miniscule when it's in regard to B to D-list characters like Uncle Sam....ie, making Uncle Sam Black won't make much of a difference in sales. Sure, we're discussing the change, but it's questionable whether threads like these will lead to a large number of people running out to buy the book.
    Last edited by Christopher Cross Is God; 12-14-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    Mark Waid, Greg Rucka and Gail Simone.
    lol
    Are you seriously comparing those cases to the Gary Friedrich situation? Waid, Rucka and Simone would laugh at you for even suggesting that. Really, just plain ridiculous!
    None of those creators were screwed. They simply weren't pleased with some editorial decisions. Simone didn't even left yet and Rucka has the exact same problems with Marvel.

  15. #405
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Kent View Post
    lol
    Are you seriously comparing those cases to the Gary Friedrich situation? Waid, Rucka and Simone would laugh at you for even suggesting that. Really, just plain ridiculous!
    None of those creators were screwed. They simply weren't pleased with some editorial decisions. Simone didn't even left yet and Rucka has the exact same problems with Marvel.
    No, the situations aren't the same. But I would argue that comics would be better all around without heavy-handed editorial crap getting in the way. And when somebody loses a job because they have a fool for a boss, that looks like getting screwed to me.
    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
    Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

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