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  1. #316
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Non-Americans can have an investment in the characters. But not recognizing that the characters are being created and written by Americans for an American audience would be irrational.

    All of which is funny to mention since the overt patriotism that used to fill a lot of the comics has died out, and I have no problem with that.
    Thank you for answering that for me. I mean, how many pictures of the JSA - wait, what does that A in JSA stand for? Albion? Rats, I keep forgetting. Someone please remind me.
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  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Non-Americans can have an investment in the characters. But not recognizing that the characters are being created and written by Americans for an American audience would be irrational.
    Not for an exclusively American audience. Do you know how many countries those books are exported to?
    All of which is funny to mention since the overt patriotism that used to fill a lot of the comics has died out, and I have no problem with that.
    Something we agree on, finally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Brady View Post
    Too bad. That very much is your problem for latching on to foreign material. Believe it or not, that fact that you're from Bumblef**k, England is completely irrelevant to DC Comics.
    I know that. I wasn't talking about DC Comics, I was responding to the guy who thinks I'm a "bad person" because I don't share his personal obsession with America's social problems. Though DC should care about alienating longtime fans and customers, regardless of their location.

  3. #318
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I'm really not seeing your logic here. When I talk about the classes of people I'm concerned with, they're not published because they're not as marketable. Yet, if a black or gay hero isn't as marketable as a straight white hero, they should be published because that's the right thing to do?

    I fully understand earth 2 is outselling Justice Society by a wide margin. I don't blame DC for their publishing choices, I may not like it, but hey, I like anchovy pizza, I'm not the target market. What upsets me is when people call what happened increasing diversity. If a gay black man is entitled to read charcaters that reflect him, why shouldn't a white married guy in his 50s? Why shouldn't the overweight girl read about an Etta Candy that isn't a supermodel, or a wheelchair bound team leader who PWNs the digital world and also able to kick butt physically?

    Why is it OK to say "I don't want to read about old fat people" but it's social anathema to say "I don't want to read about gay black people"?

    I harp on age and marital status but there are people who are focused primarily on black characters. So what? I am unhappy because the progress made by the groups I talk about has been reversed. And people thinking that's progress are people who are too focused on one aspect.
    "Doing the right thing" is the reason for doing it at all; "marketability" is the reason for doing it in the way they do it.

    The former is the answer to why they don't just leave them all white straight males; the latter is why they don't leave them old and fat and married (and why they don't do it by just creating new characters, which isn't what you were saying but while I'm on the subject...)
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  4. #319
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Brady View Post
    Too bad. That very much is your problem for latching on to foreign material. Believe it or not, that fact that you're from Bumblef**k, England is completely irrelevant to DC Comics, and always has been.
    It also matches up with the lack of empathy being shown in the thread.
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  5. #320
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Sorry, but you still haven't explained to me what is so sacred about these fictional characters that they cannot be changed for the better.
    In what way does making a white/straight character black/gay make them "better"? I want to hear your answer.


    Edit: Damn, this has already been asked since I last checked in. Nvm.
    Last edited by bobbyraw; 12-14-2012 at 10:02 AM.

  6. #321
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Not for an exclusively American audience. Do you know how many countries those books are exported to? Something we agree on, finally.

    I know that. I wasn't talking about DC Comics, I was responding to the guy who thinks I'm a "bad person" because I don't share his personal obsession with America's social problems. Though DC should care about alienating longtime fans and customers, regardless of their location.
    I don't know that DC considers giving gays and minorities a fair shake as being an American problem. Saying "it's not something I have to deal with in my own life" is one thing. Essentially saying "I don't care about how gays and minorities feel" is quite another. We're all one big happy world. Nobody's asking you to go march in a gay pride parade, just cut them some slack when someone else does something in that direction.

    And DC does care about not losing longtime fans and customers. For example, I've been reading DC for about 35 years and I find the fact that the invigorated their line to be very interesting and it has increased my purchases of their books.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  7. #322
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    In what way does making a white/straight character black/gay make them "better"? I want to hear your answer.
    Because they are no longer a part of a fantasy world that implies that being white and straight is the only kind of person who exists or can be a hero.

    It can also allow the writer to feel less skeevy about writing in such a world, which allows them to be happier with the work and produce better work.

    It also makes the character more accessible to a new market who might be hungering for more characters of that sort.

    It also makes me feel better about enjoying comics if I know that they are not being quite as exclusionary.
    Last edited by glennsim; 12-14-2012 at 10:04 AM.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  8. #323
    Senior Member timeismoney's Avatar
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    I got to give to you guys in this thread y'all some disrespectful ass people, and comic wonder why gaming kicks it ass in sales.

    Look at Assassin Creed the character has been Muslim, Italian, and Native American and game fans never complain or cry.

    Now lets look some comics response to character change, Uncle Sam is green. Why would DC mess up such a good character I'm not reading DC anymore. See the different.

    Also my fellow comic fans we got to stop, looking at problem from a race or I live in a different country and just look at a situation as a human problem. But that how I came up and I would never try to push what I believe off on other people.
    Last edited by timeismoney; 12-14-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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  9. #324
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    Because they are no longer a part of a fantasy world that implies that being white and straight is the only kind of person who exists or can be a hero.
    creating a new character solves this. don't need to change existing characters.

    It can also allow the writer to feel less skeevy about writing in such a world, which allows them to be happier with the work and produce better work.
    Based on what evidence|?

    It also makes the character more accessible to a new market who might be hungering for more characters of that sort.
    And creating a new character doesn't work for them, why? Does this market even exist? How come they haven't been supporting new minority characters like batwing?

    It also makes me feel better about enjoying comics if I know that they are not being quite as exclusionary.
    So people should lose THEIR favourites (or have them altered to such a degree that they are barely the character that they have developed an attachment to) in order to make you feel better?

  10. #325
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeismoney View Post
    I got to give to you guys in this thread y'all some disrespectful ass people, and comic wonder why gaming kicks it ass in sales.

    Look at Assassin Creed the character has been Muslim, Italian, and Native American and game fans never complain or cry.

    Now lets look some comics response to character change, Uncle Sam is green. Why would DC mess up such a good character I'm not reading DC anymore. See the different.

    Also my fellow comic fans we got to stop, looking at problem from a race or I live in a different country and just look at a situation as a human problem. But that how I came up and I would never try to push what I believe off on other people.
    Mate, learn to read. Seriously. It has been repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that we all think diversity is good. More blacks/gays/asians/australians/indians/kenyans/whateverians = good. No-one thinks otherwise (unless they're a racist)

    It is the changing of the race or sexual orientation of pre-existing characters that we are against. It alters a character that certain fans may have developed an attachment to over decades of reading by messing with their backstory, the implications of their interactions with other characters, (at times) their personality, etc.

    It is done, not to benefit the quality of the story, but as a gimic, an attempt to attract audiences which have been shown not to exist, or simply an attempt to avoid criticism by small, but vocal, groups of PC-loudmouths.
    Last edited by bobbyraw; 12-14-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  11. #326
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    creating a new character solves this. don't need to change existing characters.
    But nobody has explained to me why they need to bother creating a new character when they can change/replace an existing one.



    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    Based on what evidence|?
    Well, for one, the fact that James Robinson felt the need to retain a gay character in the Earth 2 circle. Also, other interviews I've read where writers expressed a desire to have the world they are writing about reflect the real world in that area.
    ou


    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    And creating a new character doesn't work for them, why? Does this market even exist? How come they haven't been supporting new minority characters like batwing?
    At the expense of over-generalizing, any new character needs a tie to an existing/past one to find an audience. And whether the market exists or doesn't, a marketing strategy that assumes yo.ur audience is only straight white males is not going to fly in today's society. And we don't know that that group hasn't been supporting Batwing.



    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    So people should lose THEIR favourites (or have them altered to such a degree that they are barely the character that they have developed an attachment to) in order to make you feel better?
    If they are that attached to one version of a fictional character, then they have bigger problems than me and my feelings.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  12. #327
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    Mate, learn to read. Seriously. It has been repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that we all think diversity is good. More blacks/gays/asians/australians/indians/kenyans/whateverians = good. No-one thinks otherwise (unless they're a racist)

    It is the changing of the race or sexual orientation of pre-existing characters that we are against. It alters a character that certain fans may have developed an attachment to over decades of reading by messing with their backstory, the implications of their interactions with other characters, (at times) their personality, etc.

    It is done, not to benefit the quality of the story, but as a gimic, an attempt to attract audiences which have been shown not to exist, or simply an attempt to avoid criticism by small, but vocal, groups of PC-loudmouths.
    So would you anticipate a company like DC, when asked about why they don't have more gay/minority characters, to say "Well, in our experience, only straight white males really buy our product, and they only want to read about other straight white males, so that's what we're focusing on."

    I believe the answer to that would be "Then you need to do more to get other kinds of people to buy your product."

    I believe I would also be willing to compare the size of the "small but vocal group of PC-loudmouths" with the small but vocal group of people who don't like alterations to their characters.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  13. #328
    Senior Member timeismoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    Mate, learn to read. Seriously. It has been repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that we all think diversity is good. More blacks/gays/asians/australians/indians/kenyans/whateverians = good. No-one thinks otherwise (unless they're a racist)

    It is the changing of the race or sexual orientation of pre-existing characters that we are against. It alters a character that certain fans may have developed an attachment to over decades of reading by messing with their backstory, the implications of their interactions with other characters, (at times) their personality, etc.

    It is done, not to benefit the quality of the story, but as a gimic, an attempt to attract audiences which have been shown not to exist, or simply an attempt to avoid criticism by small, but vocal PC-loudmouths.
    And what you and others don't get is that these companies, have the right to do what ever the hell they want with these characters because they own them and not y'all.

    So crying about it show that some of y'all lack the understanding, that these character aren't there to make just y'all happy.

    But from what I gather from this forum is a complete lack of understanding.
    Last edited by timeismoney; 12-14-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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  14. #329
    Senior Member timeismoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    So would you anticipate a company like DC, when asked about why they don't have more gay/minority characters, to say "Well, in our experience, only straight white males really buy our product, and they only want to read about other straight white males, so that's what we're focusing on."

    I believe the answer to that would be "Then you need to do more to get other kinds of people to buy your product."
    Give up it is like talking to wall, sure it listen but it don't understand you LOL.
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  15. #330
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyraw View Post
    creating a new character solves this. don't need to change existing characters.
    It doesn't, because they don't sell well.

    And creating a new character doesn't work for them, why? Does this market even exist? How come they haven't been supporting new minority characters like batwing?
    New characters generally don't work because they lack the history of the older characters. This is true regardless of the characters race. Here's a few titles starring new white characters that did not last very long:

    Aztek, Chase, Chronos, Manhunter, Resurrection Man.
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