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  1. #211
    BANNED kmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    The armed guards and handcuffs wouldn't make anyone feel better if they know those things are useless, when you know the control is an illusion the illusion doesn't continue to comfort.
    The general public doesnt know that it's useless, and this visual will make them feel better/less scared of this perceived threat.

  2. #212
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    The armed guards and handcuffs wouldn't make anyone feel better if they know those things are useless, when you know the control is an illusion the illusion doesn't continue to comfort.
    Which can said as well against airport scanners, wedding rings (or weddings in general. You can just sign a paper and get all the legalities of marriage), CDC disease assessments, and the very nature of nation states ("States" are artificial, symbolic constructs of people simply agreeing en masse that they are so, they don't really exist). This does not mean they are meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Discworld
    Death: Humans need fantasy to *be* human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape.
    Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
    Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
    Susan: So we can believe the big ones?
    Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing.
    Susan: They're not the same at all.
    Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged.
    Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?
    Death: My point exactly. You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?
    Last edited by Twickster; 12-13-2012 at 11:31 PM.

  3. #213
    Veteran Member Simbob4000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
    The general public doesnt know that it's useless, and this visual will make them feel better/less scared of this perceived threat.

    What perceived threat then? In this scenario, what would the general public have to fear about Superman if they don't know about him? I would bet that before this scene where he's handcuffed that Superman has already shown his powers in some big way. Although that scene where he's in handcuffs doesn't look like it's for the public, it very well could be, but the handcuffs look like they're there for us the viewer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Twickster View Post
    Which can said as well against airport scanners, security guards, CDC disease assessments, and the very nature of nation states ("States" are artificial, symbolic constructs of people simply agreeing en masse that they are so, they don't really exist). Which does not mean that they have no tangible effect in reality.

    Only airport scanners actully do something, if airports scanners were just boxes that everyone knew didn't do anything...not one person would feel safer because of them, and everyone would wonder why they had to waste time with them.

  4. #214
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    What perceived threat then? In this scenario, what would the general public have to fear about Superman if they don't know about him? I would bet that before this scene where he's handcuffed that Superman has already shown his powers in some big way. Although that scene where he's in handcuffs doesn't look like it's for the public, it very well could be, but the handcuffs look like they're there for us the viewer.

    Only airport scanners actully do something, if airports scanners were just boxes that everyone knew didn't do anything...not one person would feel safer because of them, and everyone would wonder why they had to waste time with them.
    Dude, airport scanners are primarily there for the psychically effects, same as security guards. They did studies on this. Essentially, of the hundreds of thousands of pieces of luggage that goes through scanners, a not insignificant number of dangerous items does pass through - enough to not justify their expense. Authorities keep them around for the symbolic rather than active effect.

    Also, wedding rings don't actually *do* anything. They don't make people more married, or faithful, or in love. Wedding ceremonies too. You can sign a piece of paper and have all the legal niceties. What a waste of time they are.
    Last edited by Twickster; 12-14-2012 at 06:38 AM.

  5. #215
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    What perceived threat then? In this scenario, what would the general public have to fear about Superman if they don't know about him? I would bet that before this scene where he's handcuffed that Superman has already shown his powers in some big way.
    Ok, so you are betting that he has shown his powers in some big way, probably in an early battle with Zod or something like it. And you ask what would the public have to fear if they don't know about him? Well, most people fear the unknown, particularly if that unknown can level a city if they so choose. Until it is proven that he is worthy of trust and adoration, people would fear him. And Governments would fear him. Wearing handcuffs willingly only serves to start building that trust. The handcuffs are a symbol to the world that Superman is willing to follow the laws of the land.

    Why can't you see that?

  6. #216
    Junior Member TheDarkNut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Why can't you see that?
    Because pointless arguing is so much more fun!

  7. #217
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    If anything you're stating a fundamental truth about human psychology: people like to feel in control, even if that control is only symbolic and illusory. If the world sees Superman as a threat, then seeing him in handcuffs under armed guard will make them feel better, even if it's functionally meaningless. Honestly, I can't imagine what part of that some people seem to find so hard to grasp.
    I can't speak for others, but if I live in a world with gods, aliens, etc. then an itty bitty pair of handcuffs isn't making me feel better unless they're made of dwarf star matter or something. Of course Superman could be their first contact with anything superhuman. If I didn't know anything specific besides "this guy is superhuman" sure I'd feel somewhat better.
    Last edited by Surtur; 12-14-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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  8. #218
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Ok, so you are betting that he has shown his powers in some big way, probably in an early battle with Zod or something like it. And you ask what would the public have to fear if they don't know about him? Well, most people fear the unknown, particularly if that unknown can level a city if they so choose. Until it is proven that he is worthy of trust and adoration, people would fear him. And Governments would fear him. Wearing handcuffs willingly only serves to start building that trust. The handcuffs are a symbol to the world that Superman is willing to follow the laws of the land.

    Why can't you see that?
    its pretty simple symbolism...I don't understand how people are glossing over it or missing it completely
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  9. #219
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone can doubt the symbolism, the effectiveness maybe. Though it's hard for me to separate myself from someone who knows exactly what Supes is capable of and look at it from the POV of a random Earthling.
    Last edited by Surtur; 12-14-2012 at 08:48 AM.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  10. #220
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    I don't think anyone can doubt the symbolism, the effectiveness maybe.
    because it's not about effectiveness...it's making a gesture to people who see you as a threat that you are not a threat and are willing to be held accountable

    did someone like Bernie Madoff need to be cuffed? probably not, but you do it because its procedure and it shows people that no one is above the rules
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  11. #221
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Well yeah, but when you're getting into symbolism the effectiveness can vary dramatically from person to person. There is really no right or wrong answer.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    The armed guards and handcuffs wouldn't make anyone feel better if they know those things are useless, when you know the control is an illusion the illusion doesn't continue to comfort.
    At least two basic principles of human psychology--Cognitive DIssonance and Self-Delusion--say that's absolutely untrue. And the basic underlying foundation of both principles is that people can make themselves believe whatever they want to believe, even in the face of significant evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by kalorama; 12-14-2012 at 09:09 AM.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    Well yeah, but when you're getting into symbolism the effectiveness can vary dramatically from person to person. There is really no right or wrong answer.
    The effectiveness of anything can vary from person to person. But just because a strategy's not 100% effective for every individual doesn't mean you just abandon it whole cloth. If the Earth is being invaded by super powerful aliens, anything that makes even some people feel a little bit safer is worth a shot, esp. when there's no inherent risk or cost involved in doing it.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    I can't speak for others, but if I live in a world with gods, aliens, etc. then an itty bitty pair of handcuffs isn't making me feel better unless they're made of dwarf star matter or something. Of course Superman could be their first contact with anything superhuman. If I didn't know anything specific besides "this guy is superhuman" sure I'd feel somewhat better.
    Well, it seems pretty clear to me, both from what's been said in interviews with Snyder and from what we see in the trailer, that this is the world's first contact with superhumans.

  15. #225
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Well, it seems pretty clear to me, both from what's been said in interviews with Snyder and from what we see in the trailer, that this is the world's first contact with superhumans.
    Which, interestingly enough... now allows for Superman and Batman (Nolans versions) to exist in the same universe. Batman was a masked vigilante confined (mostly) to a single city (Gotham). While all of that was going on, Clark was on his "vision quest" or "walkabout" or whatever you want to call it. And now he is coming into the public eye.

    As I see it, with that timeline, it is entirely possible that Batman and Superman can co-exist without destroying either characters film reality. And as such, they can then appear in JLA together.

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