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  1. #661

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I didn't liken the Silver Age and Reeve films in any other way than their general popularity/importance for their times. I've heard the Reeve films inspired the Byrne reboot, but I don't see it. Beyond some of the boyscout persona, very little of that version of Superman could be seen in comics between 1986 and the early 2000s.
    There's a Byrne interview where he mentions that his version of Krypton was inspired from the Donner films. I'm sure it's there somewhere online...

  2. #662
    Junior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtute View Post
    Why is the the Reeve Superman being likened to the Silver Age Superman? They are not really all that similar. In fact, the movies were an inspiration for the John Byrne version of the mythos. Personally, I love the Silver Age Superman but I'm not a huge fan of the Donner films.


    I agree with this though.
    Absurdly high level and cartoonish feats, typified by Superman’s ability to travel back in time by spinning the Earth around, an extremely lighthearted atmosphere at odds with that of the Bronze Age, and powers as the plot demands, such as the amnesia kiss demonstrated in Superman II. Superman wasn’t even a reporter at the Daily Planet upon the film’s release. He worked at a news station, though, so to account for the fact that his Silver Age status quo of working at The Daily Planet was more widely known, they decided to revert to that instead. As for the John Byrne run, Superbaby was one of the first things he retconned out; Post-Crisis continuity says he didn't develop his powers until adolescence.
    Last edited by LunarMoon; 12-16-2012 at 12:15 AM.
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  3. #663

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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Absurdly high level and cartoonish feats, typified by Supermanís ability to travel back in time by spinning the Earth around, an extremely lighthearted atmosphere at odds with that of the Bronze Age, and powers as the plot demands, such as the amnesia kiss demonstrated in Superman II. Superman wasnít even a reporter at the Daily Planet upon the filmís release. He worked at a news station, though, so to account for the fact that his Silver Age status quo of working at The Daily Planet was more widely known, they decided to revert to that instead.
    Those are superficial similarities. Superman working at the Daily Planet isn't exclusive to the Silver Age; that's pretty much how it's been since the character's inception, except for the Bronze Age. Silver Age Krypton was a far cry from the Krypton of the Reeve films. It had no Superboy and was nowhere near as colourful or crazy as a typical Silver Age Superman story.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    As for the John Byrne run, Superbaby was one of the first things he retconned out; Post-Crisis continuity says he didn't develop his powers until adolescence.
    Yes, just like in the Reeve films.

  4. #664
    Junior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtute View Post
    Those are superficial similarities. Superman working at the Daily Planet isn't exclusive to the Silver Age; that's pretty much how it's been since the character's inception, except for the Bronze Age. Silver Age Krypton was a far cry from the Krypton of the Reeve films. It had no Superboy and was nowhere near as colourful or crazy as a typical Silver Age Superman story.
    Superman possessing the ability to travel back in time and revive someone back from the dead by spinning the planet around is a superficial similarity? When people complain about Superman being invulnerable, it's generally because their only familiarity with the character is through the Donner films, whose Superman possesses many of the power level problems emblemic of the Silver Age (planet juggling Superman). Bronze Age and especially Crisis On Infinite Earths massively depowered him. Even the antagonist's plan was wacky and over the top. Sinking the west coast to create beach side property is not something that modern Lex would do.


    Yes, just like in the Reeve films.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    If you honestly think that Smallville is more important than the Silver Age for Superman, you are very very poorly informed. Smallville was an abomination of a TV show. It was just terrible. I can't take the show seriously, it was THAT bad. I don't think every Silver Age Superman story is great, but a lot of them were and most of the big concepts that have been used over and over for years came from them.
    DC had a remarkably mediocre Silver Age. While a lot Silver Age Marvel stories such as Spider-Man No More, If This Be My Destiny, and The Death of Gwen Stacy are heavily recommended the same cannot be said for DC’s stable. The earliest highly acclaimed Superman story that comes to mind is Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, written in 1986. Batman’s Silver Age was also pretty terrible. Eventually, DC had to step up their game in order to compete with Marvel.

    Also, I'd sooner take just about any portrayal over what the Donner-Singer films did to Lex. They ruined Lex Luthor amongst the general public. I have no idea what they were thinking with the real estate garbage, and I still stand by the assertion that Lex has never appeared in a Superman film.

    Comic Lex: Genius Ubermensch ("President? Do you know how much power I'd have to give up to be president?")
    vs
    Donner's Lex: Zany Real Estate Tycoon ("I would trade three hundred THOUSAND coconuts and every ounce of your blood for a QUART OF GASOLINE!")
    Last edited by LunarMoon; 12-16-2012 at 01:03 AM.
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  5. #665
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Bronze Age ... massively depowered him.
    For about 5 issues.

  6. #666
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Superman possessing the ability to travel back in time and revive someone back from the dead by spinning the planet around is a superficial similarity? When people complain about Superman being invulnerable, it's generally because their only familiarity with the character is through the Donner films, whose Superman possesses many of the power level problems emblemic of the Silver Age (planet juggling Superman). Bronze Age and especially Crisis On Infinite Earths massively depowered him. Even the antagonist's plan was wacky and over the top. Sinking the west coast to create beach side property is not something that modern Lex would do.







    DC had a remarkably mediocre Silver Age. While a lot Silver Age Marvel stories such as Spider-Man No More, If This Be My Destiny, and The Death of Gwen Stacy are heavily recommended the same cannot be said for DC’s stable. The earliest highly acclaimed Superman story that comes to mind is Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, written in 1986. Batman’s Silver Age was also pretty terrible. Eventually, DC had to step up their game in order to compete with Marvel.

    Also, I'd sooner take just about any portrayal over what the Donner-Singer films did to Lex. They ruined Lex Luthor amongst the general public. I have no idea what they were thinking with the real estate garbage, and I still stand by the assertion that Lex has never appeared in a Superman film.

    Comic Lex: Genius Ubermensch ("President? Do you know how much power I'd have to give up to be president?")
    vs
    Donner's Lex: Zany Real Estate Tycoon ("I would trade three hundred THOUSAND coconuts and every ounce of your blood for a QUART OF GASOLINE!")
    To say that DC had a "remarkably mediocre" Silver Age reflects an obscene amount of ignorance. Don't drink the Marvel Kool-Aid. Also, several of the Marvel stories you cited were Bronze Age, not Silver Age stories. "The Death Of Superman" (original), "Superman's Return To Krypton", "The Last Days Of Superman", "Superman In Kandor!", "Captive of the Red Sun!", "The Showdown Between Luthor and Superman!" and "The Team Of Luthor and Brainiac!" are all classics and that is just a small selection of Superman stories, not to mention all of DC's other series...and by the way, as great as FF was, the Legion Of Super-Heroes in Adventure Comics was pretty awesome too and often just as good, and it was a better book overall than Avengers or JLA in the 60's. It was a very groundbreaking team book and developed a passionate following...all from a one shot Superboy story. And that doesn't even get into DC's war comics, which were better than Marvels and were some of the greatest comics ever produced. DC was awesome in the 60's. Not to say that Marvel wasn't, but this lie that people have spread for years that Silver Age DC was all silly junk is complete BS and Marvel propaganda.

    I do agree the Donner movie Lex sucks. I'm not much of a fan of the Donner movies in general apart from Christopher Reeve himself.
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  7. #667

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    Popping into this thread without reading through 600-plus posts, as I just saw the second trailer tonight when I went to see "The Hobbit" with my girlfriend, who is not a die-hard comic book fan but does enjoy superhero stories and has a basic working knowledge of the most popular ones. I thought the trailer was awesome and it made me want to speed up time to the movie's release almost as much as "The Dark Knight Rises" did. When I asked my girlfriend what she thought of it however, she said Superman looked good, and she really liked seeing Kevin Costner as Pa Kent, but she hated the music and she hated the fact that Lois Lane doesn't have dark hair. (This has much to do with how I have complained about how Ben Affleck didn't have his hair colored red when he played Matt Murdock in "Daredevil," a movie my girlfriend liked mainly because she is a huge Jennifer Garner fan. Long story.)

    On the music- honestly, I really didn't even take much notice of it while watching the trailer. We both would prefer to hear the original John Williams Superman theme music when the movie comes out. Does anyone happen to know anything about whether or not that might be the case? "Superman Returns" was still using it when that came out. I assume Warner Brothers owns that music and can use it as they please. Surely they must realize that it is much loved by fans? This led to a conversation about how Disney better realize that if they don't keep the same music for their new "Star Wars" movies it will make whole theaters full of fans erupt in riotous booing.

  8. #668

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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Superman possessing the ability to travel back in time and revive someone back from the dead by spinning the planet around is a superficial similarity? When people complain about Superman being invulnerable, it's generally because their only familiarity with the character is through the Donner films, whose Superman possesses many of the power level problems emblemic of the Silver Age (planet juggling Superman). Bronze Age and especially Crisis On Infinite Earths massively depowered him. Even the antagonist's plan was wacky and over the top. Sinking the west coast to create beach side property is not something that modern Lex would do.
    I'm pretty sure there are Bronze Age issues as well which show Superman travelling through time. Superman's power levels are not a problem. It's their perception of who Superman is "supposed" to be that prevents them from appreciating the character.

    I'll agree that movie's Lex was pretty awful though. He didn't seem much like Silver Age Lex either.

    Yeah, you're right. I'll admit it's been a long time since I watched the Donner films but Superman having powers as a kid is also something that goes back to the 30s; it's not a Silver Age addition.
    Last edited by Virtute; 12-16-2012 at 03:07 AM.

  9. #669
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    To say that DC had a "remarkably mediocre" Silver Age reflects an obscene amount of ignorance. Don't drink the Marvel Kool-Aid. Also, several of the Marvel stories you cited were Bronze Age, not Silver Age stories. "The Death Of Superman" (original), "Superman's Return To Krypton", "The Last Days Of Superman", "Superman In Kandor!", "Captive of the Red Sun!", "The Showdown Between Luthor and Superman!" and "The Team Of Luthor and Brainiac!" are all classics and that is just a small selection of Superman stories, not to mention all of DC's other series...and by the way, as great as FF was, the Legion Of Super-Heroes in Adventure Comics was pretty awesome too and often just as good, and it was a better book overall than Avengers or JLA in the 60's. It was a very groundbreaking team book and developed a passionate following...all from a one shot Superboy story. And that doesn't even get into DC's war comics, which were better than Marvels and were some of the greatest comics ever produced. DC was awesome in the 60's. Not to say that Marvel wasn't, but this lie that people have spread for years that Silver Age DC was all silly junk is complete BS and Marvel propaganda.

    I do agree the Donner movie Lex sucks. I'm not much of a fan of the Donner movies in general apart from Christopher Reeve himself.
    I'll give you all of that except the bolded out stuff. FF is one of those all time good runs, and while I'm a big Legion fan the early stuff wasn't quite up to par with the original FF run.
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  10. #670
    Senior Member Tiberious's Avatar
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    Not nitpicking and not trying to start a fight, but why does the ground tremble and snow swirl around him before he leaps into space? Is it because he's using some level of TK to fly?

  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Not nitpicking and not trying to start a fight, but why does the ground tremble and snow swirl around him before he leaps into space? Is it because he's using some level of TK to fly?
    We don't actually have any answers to that for you.
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  12. #672

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Not nitpicking and not trying to start a fight, but why does the ground tremble and snow swirl around him before he leaps into space? Is it because he's using some level of TK to fly?
    He's just pushing down against the ground with his fist, and sort of charging up like a car revving up its engines. Best way I can explain it.

  13. #673

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    ive watched the scene of him crouching then flying into space, no joke, 20 times - it makes the hairs on my neck stand up!

  14. #674
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberious View Post
    Not nitpicking and not trying to start a fight, but why does the ground tremble and snow swirl around him before he leaps into space? Is it because he's using some level of TK to fly?
    It's a common "powering up" thing in manga an anime that is a cool visual. Don't think it really has anything to do with TK or his powers. Smallville kinda started doing it and it looks like it caught on.
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  15. #675
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    If you honestly think that Smallville is more important than the Silver Age for Superman, you are very very poorly informed. Smallville was an abomination of a TV show. It was just terrible. I can't take the show seriously, it was THAT bad.
    First of all, how much of the show did you watch? Second, I'm sure you're aware that the show was an origin story, so it wasn't a Superman story save the final minutes of the series. Finally, there were a lot of questionable aspects of Smalville, but that doesn't mean the show isn't important or won't be considered important 40 years from now.

    I don't think every Silver Age Superman story is great, but a lot of them were and most of the big concepts that have been used over and over for years came from them. I think I'll defer to Alan Moore, Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman on Silver Age Superman. From the Silver Age: Krypton as a place that mattered, Luthor as a real character, Brainiac, the Legion of Super-Heroes, Kandor, Supergirl, Phantom Zone villains, Krypto, Nightwing and Flamebird, Bizarro, Metallo, Parasite, the red sun explanation for his powers, all the Jimmy Olsen craziness, and that's just off the top of my head.
    Those are plot and story elements, though. They are aspects of that era that don't have to replicated as they were formed originally in order to be considered proper parts of Superman mythology. In other words, to preserve the true character Superman and the integrity of his mythology, all of those characters and explanations need not be woven into the story in the exact same way. A television series like Smallville and a film like Man of Steel can take those elements and make them their own. Stories don't need to be Silver Age stories to be important or good. They can be an amalgam of old ideas, new ideas, and adapted ideas. Why? Because that's how you create your next Silver Age. You have to start somewhere.

    Heck, Silver Age Superman has had more influence on Batman just by virtue of being the source of Dick Grayson's adult identity than Smallville has had on Superman comics. The only influence Smallville should ever have on anything is as a "what NOT to do".
    The show has only been over for two years, so I'd say it's a bit too early to tell how much the show has influenced comics. And I'm not specifically referring to comics. At the moment, DC is pushing CW adaptations of several of its title characters: Arrow this year and Amazon the next. The Smallville: Season 11 comic, which is selling so well DC just decided to digitally publish it every week of the month instead of just three out of four weeks, has provided the company with new ideas about how to distribute its products. Smallville, as a show about Clark Kent before he became Superman, also has very little it can influence outside of other origin stories. Mark Waid and Geoff Johns both drew on Smallville for their recent origin stories, and there is a lot in JMS's Earth One that evokes Smallville-related themes and ideas.

    I see no influence from Smallville in Man of Steel at all.
    The Kents and the conflict over fear of rejection stand out to me more than anything. Lois meeting Clark/Superman before he joins The Daily Planet also echoes a key aspect of the show.

    Smallville never even hit the top 100 in Nielsen Ratings. It's not a factor.
    Most popular shows these days don't do well in the ratings. Smallville sold well internationally, it was always top of the iTunes downloads, and it had incredibly impressive DVD sales. The Season 9 DVD set of Smallville sold better than shows like House, Grey's Anatomy, Modern Family and The Office.

    Silver/Bronze Age Comics, Reeve Movies, George Reeves TV Show and Death of have all had decades of fame. Those are what most people think of when they think of Superman still. And there is one more source: Dark Knight Returns. A lot of people who think Superman sucks got those ideas from that book. It will be up to MOS to redefine Superman if it can. MOS and the JL of no "A" movie.
    I honestly don't think most people think of comic book versions of Superman. And I think the key to gauging any long-lasting impression or importance is time. We won't know how influential modern interpretations of the character will be for decades. Dark Knight Returns is a great example of how an interpretation of Superman doesn't have to be considered "good" in order for it to be considered important or influential.

    I don't know why people think Donner's Superman was the Silver Age. I know Reeve looked a lot like Swan's Superman, but as for the rest, there was a colorless drab Krypton, no Superboy, no Krypto, no Brainiac, etc. Even the PZ villains wore bland ugly disco outfits. It was a bigger influence on Byrne, as you said-in fact, he would have used Donner's Krypton if he could have. The biggest thing Byrne took from it was he took Superman's clean cut persona and turned it into the Big Blue Boy Scout manchild
    Byrne's Superman was not completely modeled after Donner's version. The biggest differences, I believe, were the inclusion of the Kents back into the narrative and making Clark into a real man instead of a mask. In fact, it's the bumbling Clark in Donner's films that most reminds me of the Silver Age. The crazy power sets added to that impression. Nevertheless, I don't see the Silver Age or the Reeve films as analogous.

    before Superman was always portrayed as an adult.
    That's hilarious. The Silver Age Superman was anything but adult. He was Peter Pan.

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